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Why choose a state that gets heavy snowfall? Is the solar potential in all the sunny states saturated?

largbae 2y ago
Why not both? I don't think solar panels are scarce, no need to hold back investment up there.
bryanlarsen 2y ago
Overbuilding & batteries in snowy areas is cheaper than an HVDC line from a sunny area. https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2020/12/27/the-future-of-electricity-is-local/ https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2020/12/27/the-future-of-...
- nilsbunger 2y ago
  It’s hard to wrap your head around how cheap solar is getting. Only get 1/4 as much sunlight? Just deploy 4x the panels!
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Just deploy 4x the panels This is where we're having issues. Solar production is ramping up spectacularly. But if we're going solar only, we need to move our 2050 targets out.
    - cowsaymoo 2y ago
      Yes, globally we are pretty behind on our wind targets, which have much denser output per turbine than square unit of panels. It's important because the wrong land use changes can be self defeating for some carbon accounting scenarios.
  - ellisv 2y ago
    I really want solar just to power my AC in the summer – any extra production would be bonus. However, the payback period is still too long for me to justify it.
    - ericcumbee 2y ago
      have you looked at the mini split units by EG4 that take MC4 connectors straight in from a bank of PVs? it might be cheaper than you think.
      - Scoundreller 2y ago
        I’m waiting for a refrigerator that does this and uses grid for backup/high demand. Refrigerator is an almost ideal use case because newer ones are inverter-drive and run around the clock. And inverter drive means it runs off DC at some level. A fridge is the one thing I really want to have work at some degree in a grid outage. Everything else I can work around pretty well.
      - nilsbunger 2y ago
        Oh that sounds useful. Basically bypass the grid and just power an ac directly. Do you have any examples of units like this?
        ericcumbee 2y ago
        https://signaturesolar.com/all-products/high-efficiency-appliances/?_bc_fsnf=1&brand=66 https://signaturesolar.com/all-products/high-efficiency-appl...
        nilsbunger 2y ago
        that is awesome! Thank you
    - oezi 2y ago
      2-4 years is too long? That's what it currently is in Germany where 1kwp now costs 350 EUR/USD including inverter.
      - nojvek 2y ago
        Roof install in US with permitting is a loooooot more expensive. Around $2/watt. I’ve seen quotes of $50k for 10KW 24 panel array without batteries.
  - polski-g 2y ago
    That's how it is in Factorio as well!
philipkglass 2y ago
The US does not have a nationwide electric grid, so adding more solar power in Arizona or Florida can't supply Wisconsin with electricity. Early solar farms were very concentrated in sunny states because the equipment was expensive enough that they couldn't make money elsewhere. As solar equipment has fallen in price, there are more places where a solar farm can turn a profit. That's why solar farms are now being built in places like Wisconsin. States like Arizona are still adding solar farms each year but now less sunny states are also building solar farms because falling equipment prices have made it practical.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > US does not have a nationwide electric grid, so adding more solar power in Arizona or Florida can't supply Wisconsin with electricity The Midcontinent ISO stretches into East Texas [1]. A unified grid wouldn't solve the problem, because it's one of transmission capacity and thus cost, not integration. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midcontinent_Independent_System_Operator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midcontinent_Independent_Syste...
timerol 2y ago
Because the local power economics favors some solar everywhere, due to congested transmission. Compare to Antelope Valley in SoCal, where one ranch is 230 MW, and to total CA solar, which has almost 50,000 MW and is projected to grow 50% over the next 5 years, according to https://seia.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/California-1.pdf https://seia.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/California-1.pdf
Auracle 2y ago
Transmission isn’t free. Also, there are usually only a few really heavy snowfalls a year. The rest would presumably melt off pretty quickly, though I’m no expert.
- nilsbunger 2y ago
  In California we pay a lot more for transmission than generation. Is that true in most places ?
  - nobody9999 2y ago
    >In California we pay a lot more for transmission than generation. Is that true in most places ? I can't speak for anywhere else, but had my bill handy and it's 2/3 delivery/transmission and 1/3 electricity here in NYC.
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      Would note that both New York and California have absolutely garbage transmission economics.
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        Yep. Wholesale electric contracts for electricity producers in California are as low as 3-4 cents per kilowatt hour. Many prices at the meter are closer to 45 cents per kilowatt hour. It certainly doesn't help that our monopoly transmission companies are regulated by price caps set on a cost plus basis. They have every incentive to drive up their costs and make transmission as expensive as possible.
      - nobody9999 2y ago
        >Would note that both New York and California have absolutely garbage transmission economics. Is that as compared to other places in the US? Around the world? That's not a gotcha question, as I've lived in NY for most of my life and more than the last 25 years, so I don't really know how utility companies in other places operate. Although I'd expect it would be pretty similar across the US, no?
renewiltord 2y ago
It’s profitable everywhere right now. The limit is whether you can build.
LordHeini 2y ago
Snow doesn't really matter if you remove it. And solar cells work way better if it is cold due to silicon having a lower resistance at lower temperatures. So it's not all bad if it is not overly dark.
- pfdietz 2y ago
  Also, if the modules are put in at high angle, up to vertical, they work better in winter when the Sun is low in the sky, and snow does not accumulate. In the summer one can even grow things between them. If the modules are bifacial, light scattered off the snow or sky behind them can be captured on the back surface.
  - vizzier 2y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AVO1IyfA9M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AVO1IyfA9M Video linked earlier in the thread that gives a visual on what exactly this looks like.
- Molitor5901 2y ago
  Snow doesn't really matter if you remove it. But.. someone has to go out and remove that snow, unless they have something like the Starlink dishes, but I question the reliability of that in such a cold environment. It might end up costing more to keep the panels clean than the energy they produce.
  - simplicio 2y ago
    "You periodically have to remove some snow" is a reality for basically everything in Wisconsin. Stuff still seems to get built there.
    - Molitor5901 2y ago
      True, but are they solar powered? I love solar and want to see it literally everywhere, but think they could have chosen a better spot. I hope it works, very well.
greenthrow 2y ago
Because people need power in Wisconsin and even there solar is cheaper than fossil fuels. Also snow isn't a big deal for solar. Clouds are the problem.

Why not both? I don't think solar panels are scarce, no need to hold back investment up there.

Overbuilding & batteries in snowy areas is cheaper than an HVDC line from a sunny area. https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2020/12/27/the-future-of-electricity-is-local/ https://caseyhandmer.wordpress.com/2020/12/27/the-future-of-...

nilsbunger 2y ago
It’s hard to wrap your head around how cheap solar is getting. Only get 1/4 as much sunlight? Just deploy 4x the panels!
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > Just deploy 4x the panels This is where we're having issues. Solar production is ramping up spectacularly. But if we're going solar only, we need to move our 2050 targets out.
  - cowsaymoo 2y ago
    Yes, globally we are pretty behind on our wind targets, which have much denser output per turbine than square unit of panels. It's important because the wrong land use changes can be self defeating for some carbon accounting scenarios.
- ellisv 2y ago
  I really want solar just to power my AC in the summer – any extra production would be bonus. However, the payback period is still too long for me to justify it.
  - ericcumbee 2y ago
    have you looked at the mini split units by EG4 that take MC4 connectors straight in from a bank of PVs? it might be cheaper than you think.
    - Scoundreller 2y ago
      I’m waiting for a refrigerator that does this and uses grid for backup/high demand. Refrigerator is an almost ideal use case because newer ones are inverter-drive and run around the clock. And inverter drive means it runs off DC at some level. A fridge is the one thing I really want to have work at some degree in a grid outage. Everything else I can work around pretty well.
    - nilsbunger 2y ago
      Oh that sounds useful. Basically bypass the grid and just power an ac directly. Do you have any examples of units like this?
      - ericcumbee 2y ago
        https://signaturesolar.com/all-products/high-efficiency-appliances/?_bc_fsnf=1&brand=66 https://signaturesolar.com/all-products/high-efficiency-appl...
        nilsbunger 2y ago
        that is awesome! Thank you
  - oezi 2y ago
    2-4 years is too long? That's what it currently is in Germany where 1kwp now costs 350 EUR/USD including inverter.
    - nojvek 2y ago
      Roof install in US with permitting is a loooooot more expensive. Around $2/watt. I’ve seen quotes of $50k for 10KW 24 panel array without batteries.
- polski-g 2y ago
  That's how it is in Factorio as well!

philipkglass 2y ago

The US does not have a nationwide electric grid, so adding more solar power in Arizona or Florida can't supply Wisconsin with electricity. Early solar farms were very concentrated in sunny states because the equipment was expensive enough that they couldn't make money elsewhere. As solar equipment has fallen in price, there are more places where a solar farm can turn a profit. That's why solar farms are now being built in places like Wisconsin. States like Arizona are still adding solar farms each year but now less sunny states are also building solar farms because falling equipment prices have made it practical.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> US does not have a nationwide electric grid, so adding more solar power in Arizona or Florida can't supply Wisconsin with electricity The Midcontinent ISO stretches into East Texas [1]. A unified grid wouldn't solve the problem, because it's one of transmission capacity and thus cost, not integration. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midcontinent_Independent_System_Operator https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midcontinent_Independent_Syste...

timerol 2y ago

Because the local power economics favors some solar everywhere, due to congested transmission. Compare to Antelope Valley in SoCal, where one ranch is 230 MW, and to total CA solar, which has almost 50,000 MW and is projected to grow 50% over the next 5 years, according to https://seia.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/California-1.pdf https://seia.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/08/California-1.pdf

Auracle 2y ago

Transmission isn’t free. Also, there are usually only a few really heavy snowfalls a year. The rest would presumably melt off pretty quickly, though I’m no expert.

nilsbunger 2y ago
In California we pay a lot more for transmission than generation. Is that true in most places ?
- nobody9999 2y ago
  >In California we pay a lot more for transmission than generation. Is that true in most places ? I can't speak for anywhere else, but had my bill handy and it's 2/3 delivery/transmission and 1/3 electricity here in NYC.
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    Would note that both New York and California have absolutely garbage transmission economics.
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      Yep. Wholesale electric contracts for electricity producers in California are as low as 3-4 cents per kilowatt hour. Many prices at the meter are closer to 45 cents per kilowatt hour. It certainly doesn't help that our monopoly transmission companies are regulated by price caps set on a cost plus basis. They have every incentive to drive up their costs and make transmission as expensive as possible.
    - nobody9999 2y ago
      >Would note that both New York and California have absolutely garbage transmission economics. Is that as compared to other places in the US? Around the world? That's not a gotcha question, as I've lived in NY for most of my life and more than the last 25 years, so I don't really know how utility companies in other places operate. Although I'd expect it would be pretty similar across the US, no?

renewiltord 2y ago

It’s profitable everywhere right now. The limit is whether you can build.

LordHeini 2y ago

Snow doesn't really matter if you remove it. And solar cells work way better if it is cold due to silicon having a lower resistance at lower temperatures. So it's not all bad if it is not overly dark.

pfdietz 2y ago
Also, if the modules are put in at high angle, up to vertical, they work better in winter when the Sun is low in the sky, and snow does not accumulate. In the summer one can even grow things between them. If the modules are bifacial, light scattered off the snow or sky behind them can be captured on the back surface.
- vizzier 2y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AVO1IyfA9M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AVO1IyfA9M Video linked earlier in the thread that gives a visual on what exactly this looks like.
Molitor5901 2y ago
Snow doesn't really matter if you remove it. But.. someone has to go out and remove that snow, unless they have something like the Starlink dishes, but I question the reliability of that in such a cold environment. It might end up costing more to keep the panels clean than the energy they produce.
- simplicio 2y ago
  "You periodically have to remove some snow" is a reality for basically everything in Wisconsin. Stuff still seems to get built there.
  - Molitor5901 2y ago
    True, but are they solar powered? I love solar and want to see it literally everywhere, but think they could have chosen a better spot. I hope it works, very well.

greenthrow 2y ago

Because people need power in Wisconsin and even there solar is cheaper than fossil fuels. Also snow isn't a big deal for solar. Clouds are the problem.