3 ms·

Less poltical information from fewer sources equals incumbent protection. This is a regression for democracy and an advance for oligarchy.

datway 2y ago
Oligarchy actually does great with less regulation too.
paulryanrogers 2y ago
Can't uploaders still post political videos? Based on the political ads I've seen over the years, people are better off hearing from non-paid sources.
x3ro 2y ago
Interesting, why do you think so? I feel like paid, targeted ads on platforms everyone uses are extremely insidous, because an incumbent or major political party will always have more funds than an e.g. an upstart party, and targeting is generally bad as it's easy to play into people's preconceived notions that way, instead of presenting your position or the change you advocate for. Edit: replaced "incumbent" with "incumebt or major political party"
- spacebanana7 2y ago
  Winning at targeted ads is more of a skill game. You typically only need a few thousand well placed votes to win an election, and even 100k impressions at $10 CPM is pretty inexpensive.
  - piva00 2y ago
    > You typically only need a few thousand well placed votes to win an election, and even 100k impressions at $10 CPM is pretty inexpensive. In the context of the EU this isn't true though, no political system in any EU member state relies on a tiny minority of votes from some states/provinces to completely tip an election.
    - spacebanana7 2y ago
      There are still some discontinuities in the electoral systems where smallish number of votes can have a massive impact. For example the run off thresholds in French legislative elections. And some places like Italy still use FPTP in a hybrid form. However you're correct that there's nothing quite like Pennsylvania in the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_French_legislative_election#Electoral_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_French_legislative_electi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Italian_general_election#Electoral_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Italian_general_election#...
- bluecalm 2y ago
  There is diminishing returns once you have enough money to spread your message. The problems arise when you don't have a way to spread it at all. It's not always a better funded who wins anyway. The last US election are the prime example: Democrats significantly outspent Trump and lost. I am sure every American have heard both sides as well: their message and their attacks on their opponent. I think more information is better for democracy in general. Removing political ads cuts in in favor of incumbents, who in EU often control other (than the Internet) media.
piva00 2y ago
I don't know, watching how USA's elections unfold with ads I don't see much real information, it's a whole lot of noise with ads not beholden to any kind of truth. One can claim anything in those ads, attack politicians not even based on what they say or what their platform states as far as it's not clear cut libel and/or defamation, plaster some fearmongering and lies on an ad and run with it to damage opponents. The less noise there's for this kind of bullshit, the better. I'm really happy that every place I've lived so far doesn't have more sources of noise during elections.
- bluecalm 2y ago
  How are you going to learn about the people running then? Rely on what they say? You need some mechanism so others can criticize them and be heard.
  - piva00 2y ago
    Of course I need mechanisms to hear criticisms, political ads like the ones in the USA are definitely not that, that's what I said. I learn about the people running from different sources, journalism where I live still has some modicum of journalism and not entertainment news like CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, etc. even though they have clear biases it's quite well understood where their biases sit at, and even the most biased publications here are not overtly partisan so even when they don't align with my political views it's still interesting to read and consider the whole spectrum of opinions without those clearly pushing a distorted reality. I really do not understand how ads are even considered as any part of the solution, at all. I'm not attacking what you said but just want to clarify it's a very alien view to my own, ads are inherently untrustworthy, they are paid, they don't suffer public scrutiny. I rely much more on interviews of candidates, publications pro and against them (including the ones I align with that's how I decided to not vote for a candidate and pushing for another candidate of the same party a couple elections ago), and read through their policies in their official platforms.
    - bluecalm 2y ago
      Well ads have informational value. They are very reliable source of what a candidate or a party wants to convey. They are a way to be heard. I don't know any place where journalism is unbiased. Not saying it doesn't exist, maybe it does in some high trust society but it's definitely very rare. USA has it easy because there are only 2 parties and both have partisan media behind them. In parliamentary system with many parties though there is a problem of small ones not being heard. Ads are one solution to that. Social media/Internet in general is another. Incumbents have huge advantage in those systems because of media control, connections to journalists etc.
LeifCarrotson 2y ago
"Information" is not what's being presented in YouTube ads. And non-incumbents/non-oligarchs can't afford to run those ads anyways.
- spacebanana7 2y ago
  It costs as little as $10 a day to run ads on YouTube. Getting results realistically requires higher spend, but a few thousand dollars can make a decent impact. Whereas traditional ad agencies and TV networks require orders of magnitude more spend to get started. Those are the placements you need oligarchs friends for.
  - sigh_again 2y ago
    Or, you have a sensible system which bans political ads on TV / print / etc, and grants every candidate equal visibility as specific times and places. We've just seen how the US's approach to politics has worked out. I'm perfectly happy with not reproducing this.
    - spacebanana7 2y ago
      > bans political ads on TV / print / etc, Power is a zero sum game. Banning adverts and paid media strengthens the influence of organic media like journalists, social media and podcasters. In the US context, that might've strengthened the Trump campaign's position relative to Harris - given the higher follower counts and podcast views. > grants every candidate equal visibility as specific times and places. The UK does something like this with free ad segments on linear TV at election times for major parties. However, the effectiveness has decreased with falling TV viewership.
Mashimo 2y ago
How does this advance an oligarchy?
botanical76 2y ago
I wish this comment were true, because this would mean political parties actually use knowledge and information to encourage people to vote for them. In the democratic elections I am exposed to (UK, US), this could not be further from the truth. Further, I think targeted marketing will always lean away from information and into exploiting emotional responses. A reduction in a bombardment of targeted marketing is a positive thing. However, there should definitely be exemptions, as political information basically just means anything that matters. I feel that ads must have a clear intention to inform, not sell, when it comes to politics.
- bluecalm 2y ago
  Well, it's true that political parties/candidates don't tell the truth about themselves but they often point true things about their political opponents. I think it's better if someone is allowed to pay for an ad pointing out someone's voting record, their past, their connections. Bringing attention to something has value as people can then verify the claim if they wish.

datway 2y ago

Oligarchy actually does great with less regulation too.

paulryanrogers 2y ago

Can't uploaders still post political videos? Based on the political ads I've seen over the years, people are better off hearing from non-paid sources.

x3ro 2y ago

Interesting, why do you think so? I feel like paid, targeted ads on platforms everyone uses are extremely insidous, because an incumbent or major political party will always have more funds than an e.g. an upstart party, and targeting is generally bad as it's easy to play into people's preconceived notions that way, instead of presenting your position or the change you advocate for. Edit: replaced "incumbent" with "incumebt or major political party"

spacebanana7 2y ago
Winning at targeted ads is more of a skill game. You typically only need a few thousand well placed votes to win an election, and even 100k impressions at $10 CPM is pretty inexpensive.
- piva00 2y ago
  > You typically only need a few thousand well placed votes to win an election, and even 100k impressions at $10 CPM is pretty inexpensive. In the context of the EU this isn't true though, no political system in any EU member state relies on a tiny minority of votes from some states/provinces to completely tip an election.
  - spacebanana7 2y ago
    There are still some discontinuities in the electoral systems where smallish number of votes can have a massive impact. For example the run off thresholds in French legislative elections. And some places like Italy still use FPTP in a hybrid form. However you're correct that there's nothing quite like Pennsylvania in the EU. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_French_legislative_election#Electoral_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_French_legislative_electi... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Italian_general_election#Electoral_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022_Italian_general_election#...
bluecalm 2y ago
There is diminishing returns once you have enough money to spread your message. The problems arise when you don't have a way to spread it at all. It's not always a better funded who wins anyway. The last US election are the prime example: Democrats significantly outspent Trump and lost. I am sure every American have heard both sides as well: their message and their attacks on their opponent. I think more information is better for democracy in general. Removing political ads cuts in in favor of incumbents, who in EU often control other (than the Internet) media.

piva00 2y ago

I don't know, watching how USA's elections unfold with ads I don't see much real information, it's a whole lot of noise with ads not beholden to any kind of truth. One can claim anything in those ads, attack politicians not even based on what they say or what their platform states as far as it's not clear cut libel and/or defamation, plaster some fearmongering and lies on an ad and run with it to damage opponents. The less noise there's for this kind of bullshit, the better. I'm really happy that every place I've lived so far doesn't have more sources of noise during elections.

bluecalm 2y ago
How are you going to learn about the people running then? Rely on what they say? You need some mechanism so others can criticize them and be heard.
- piva00 2y ago
  Of course I need mechanisms to hear criticisms, political ads like the ones in the USA are definitely not that, that's what I said. I learn about the people running from different sources, journalism where I live still has some modicum of journalism and not entertainment news like CNN, Fox News, MSNBC, etc. even though they have clear biases it's quite well understood where their biases sit at, and even the most biased publications here are not overtly partisan so even when they don't align with my political views it's still interesting to read and consider the whole spectrum of opinions without those clearly pushing a distorted reality. I really do not understand how ads are even considered as any part of the solution, at all. I'm not attacking what you said but just want to clarify it's a very alien view to my own, ads are inherently untrustworthy, they are paid, they don't suffer public scrutiny. I rely much more on interviews of candidates, publications pro and against them (including the ones I align with that's how I decided to not vote for a candidate and pushing for another candidate of the same party a couple elections ago), and read through their policies in their official platforms.
  - bluecalm 2y ago
    Well ads have informational value. They are very reliable source of what a candidate or a party wants to convey. They are a way to be heard. I don't know any place where journalism is unbiased. Not saying it doesn't exist, maybe it does in some high trust society but it's definitely very rare. USA has it easy because there are only 2 parties and both have partisan media behind them. In parliamentary system with many parties though there is a problem of small ones not being heard. Ads are one solution to that. Social media/Internet in general is another. Incumbents have huge advantage in those systems because of media control, connections to journalists etc.

LeifCarrotson 2y ago

"Information" is not what's being presented in YouTube ads. And non-incumbents/non-oligarchs can't afford to run those ads anyways.

spacebanana7 2y ago
It costs as little as $10 a day to run ads on YouTube. Getting results realistically requires higher spend, but a few thousand dollars can make a decent impact. Whereas traditional ad agencies and TV networks require orders of magnitude more spend to get started. Those are the placements you need oligarchs friends for.
- sigh_again 2y ago
  Or, you have a sensible system which bans political ads on TV / print / etc, and grants every candidate equal visibility as specific times and places. We've just seen how the US's approach to politics has worked out. I'm perfectly happy with not reproducing this.
  - spacebanana7 2y ago
    > bans political ads on TV / print / etc, Power is a zero sum game. Banning adverts and paid media strengthens the influence of organic media like journalists, social media and podcasters. In the US context, that might've strengthened the Trump campaign's position relative to Harris - given the higher follower counts and podcast views. > grants every candidate equal visibility as specific times and places. The UK does something like this with free ad segments on linear TV at election times for major parties. However, the effectiveness has decreased with falling TV viewership.

Mashimo 2y ago

How does this advance an oligarchy?

botanical76 2y ago

I wish this comment were true, because this would mean political parties actually use knowledge and information to encourage people to vote for them. In the democratic elections I am exposed to (UK, US), this could not be further from the truth. Further, I think targeted marketing will always lean away from information and into exploiting emotional responses. A reduction in a bombardment of targeted marketing is a positive thing. However, there should definitely be exemptions, as political information basically just means anything that matters. I feel that ads must have a clear intention to inform, not sell, when it comes to politics.

bluecalm 2y ago
Well, it's true that political parties/candidates don't tell the truth about themselves but they often point true things about their political opponents. I think it's better if someone is allowed to pay for an ad pointing out someone's voting record, their past, their connections. Bringing attention to something has value as people can then verify the claim if they wish.