7 ms·

Europe's flying taxi dreams falter as cash runs short

19 points by ZeljkoS 2y ago

dr_dshiv 2y ago
Sigh. I guess China will be able to finance, redesign and manufacture these. Won’t be Europe, at least. Maybe in the 2030s? Now, if Europe could jump start its manufacturing by getting its defense contracting up to speed…
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
  > I guess China will be able to finance, redesign and manufacture these. "will" ? They're all already on it: https://www.livescience.com/technology/electric-vehicles/china-green-lights-mass-production-of-autonomous-flying-taxis-with-commercial-flights-set-for-2025 https://www.livescience.com/technology/electric-vehicles/chi... https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/17/xpeng-aims-for-flying-car-pre-orders-this-year-with-delivery-in-2026.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/17/xpeng-aims-for-flying-car-pr... https://cnevpost.com/2024/11/13/xpeng-aeroht-modular-flying-car-2008-pre-orders-airshow-china/ https://cnevpost.com/2024/11/13/xpeng-aeroht-modular-flying-... You might call this a ludicrous rich man's toy, and you'd be right. But the fact that cutting-edge ludicrous rich man's toys are now appearing first in China is itself a show of strength.
- sofixa 2y ago
  > Now, if Europe could jump start its manufacturing by getting its defense contracting up to speed… Jump start? Manufacturing in the EU has been pretty constant to slightly growing in recent years as % of GDP at around 15%. For comparison, the US is at 11.4%. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/EUU/european-union/manufacturing-output https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/EUU/eur... https://www.nist.gov/el/applied-economics-office/manufacturing/manufacturing-economy/total-us-manufacturing https://www.nist.gov/el/applied-economics-office/manufacturi...
  - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    grandparent post also assumes that Europe is not ramping up arms production and defence spending. I'd be happy to hear more about it from someone who knows the field, but AFAIK, it is happening, the assumption is incorrect. It's sad that this is necessary, but it very much is.
lnsru 2y ago
There are many dreams that are failing. Self driving is solved having private driver by upper class. The same is for flying taxi. Renting helicopter is no big deal. Few hundred euros per hour and you’re anywhere in no time. Maybe flying taxi is a solution to no problem.
- netsharc 2y ago
  > Self driving is solved having private driver by upper class Hah, funnily enough, Uber is basically a private driver. It's the realization of the middle class being able to have luxuries that used to be reserved to the upper class: exploitating the working class. And no need to feel guilt because the exploitation is outsourced! Oh, wait, if I look in my history books there's this thing called a... taxi?
- tim333 2y ago
  Self driving seems to be doing quite well. See Waymo.
XorNot 2y ago
The problem with "flying anything" plans is that ground vehicles are pretty inherently stable with regards to most types of failures. Cutting or losing power solves most problems. Not so with aircraft: any failure leaves the vehicle in a notably unsafe state - hence the delta between maintenance standards for road vehicles ("have brakes which work" basically) and aircraft.
alleskleber 2y ago
From the article: > CityAirbus has an 80km range and can fly at 120kmh That's a 40 minute flight compared to roughly a 1 hour drive and vastly more expensive. Is this really useful?
- red_trumpet 2y ago
  Getting around a congested city is probably way faster than using a car. It's called CityAirbus for a reason ;-) Then again, it's an individual solution to a societal problem. I would prefer a solution for the masses, like getting rid of cars in cities and improving public transport.
  - martin_a 2y ago
    > I would prefer a solution for the masses But some people do not want to be part of "the masses", they want to fly around in flying taxis because they think they're better than everybody else. That's why companies like these exist (and hopefully fail).
  - yourusername 2y ago
    How long before noise complaints cause the CityAirbus to be restricted to narrow lanes above highways that will be just as congested as the highway below?
  - laurentiurad 2y ago
    WFH is the best solution. You get a better distribution of people across a whole region thus solving the traffic problem. It won't even be needed to invest in public transportation networks anymore.
    - AstralStorm 2y ago
      No it is not. You get to replace the social parts of the job too, and pay for the place to be prepared for the job, if at all possible. WFH really means convert your room into an office or rent a coworking space. Is anyone paid extra for that? Nope! And it's really not for everyone either, you cannot get interactive with coworkers in the same way.
lccerina 2y ago
Flying taxis are a solution to a problem that no one has. It's ridiculous anyone is financing this stuff.
- mytailorisrich 2y ago
  Lilium spend 1.4 Billion since 2015... and looking them up they seem to have gone the not uncommon path of hiring a multitude of big shot executives and of spending on swanky offices in several countries. No product shipped yet. Now, there is a market for flying taxis. Currently it is quite niche and helicopters are used. It will probably remain niche so it's not clear how these companies might fit in.
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
  Hmm, if you can make a better helicopter, using new EV technology, you've solved a problem, there's a market for that, and I'm sure this will happen. But that's relatively niche, and the "flying taxi" companies were promising a whole lot more "disruption" than that.
- leoedin 2y ago
  I don't think it's strictly true that nobody has the problem of wanting to travel medium distances quickly. In fact, everyone has that problem - that's why the roads are congested and the trains are busy. It might be more accurate to say that the kinds of flying taxis these companies are proposing - noisy, highly constrained location, unsolved airspace congestion issues at scale, probably quite unsafe - are not really a solution. But even so, there's clearly demand for helicopter transfers to airports - if an electric flying taxi can deliver that at half the per-hour cost and equivalent safety, then it's a win.
  - rsynnott 2y ago
    > But even so, there's clearly demand for helicopter transfers to airports I mean, maybe some? How much? For instance, to take Paris, the example from the article. You can apparently get a helicopter from Paris to CDG for 4000 euro, taking 17 minutes (from a not-particularly-central point). Last time I was in Paris, the RER took 30 minutes from the airport to the center, and cost a couple of euro. I'm sceptical that helicopters to airports could ever be a huge business, even if you cut the price by ten times.
dachworker 2y ago
Judging by these comments we should all just go back to riding on the backs on donkeys, except even that was at one point only a privilege for the clergy.
- RandomLensman 2y ago
  If private money isn't enough, how much state money should go into it vs other modes of transport?
camillomiller 2y ago
Private money doesn't want to finance this, and State money should NOT finance this, as it's an individual "luxury" solution to a societal issue. Hence, there's no money or interest and the companies fail. That's a very acceptable and normal cycle.
niemandhier 2y ago
They could have pivoted to small military VTOLs, lots of MAV companies did, i.e.quantum-systems. Rushing specialist and replacement parts to large scale equipment in use, would reduce the burden of relocating this equipment. The fact that they did not try, might be a hint on how well it worked.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
rsynnott 2y ago
Hadn't realised any of these companies were still going; weren't they about three hype cycles ago?

19 points by ZeljkoS 2y ago

Sigh. I guess China will be able to finance, redesign and manufacture these. Won’t be Europe, at least. Maybe in the 2030s? Now, if Europe could jump start its manufacturing by getting its defense contracting up to speed…

SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
> I guess China will be able to finance, redesign and manufacture these. "will" ? They're all already on it: https://www.livescience.com/technology/electric-vehicles/china-green-lights-mass-production-of-autonomous-flying-taxis-with-commercial-flights-set-for-2025 https://www.livescience.com/technology/electric-vehicles/chi... https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/17/xpeng-aims-for-flying-car-pre-orders-this-year-with-delivery-in-2026.html https://www.cnbc.com/2024/05/17/xpeng-aims-for-flying-car-pr... https://cnevpost.com/2024/11/13/xpeng-aeroht-modular-flying-car-2008-pre-orders-airshow-china/ https://cnevpost.com/2024/11/13/xpeng-aeroht-modular-flying-... You might call this a ludicrous rich man's toy, and you'd be right. But the fact that cutting-edge ludicrous rich man's toys are now appearing first in China is itself a show of strength.
sofixa 2y ago
> Now, if Europe could jump start its manufacturing by getting its defense contracting up to speed… Jump start? Manufacturing in the EU has been pretty constant to slightly growing in recent years as % of GDP at around 15%. For comparison, the US is at 11.4%. https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/EUU/european-union/manufacturing-output https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metrics/countries/EUU/eur... https://www.nist.gov/el/applied-economics-office/manufacturing/manufacturing-economy/total-us-manufacturing https://www.nist.gov/el/applied-economics-office/manufacturi...
- SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
  grandparent post also assumes that Europe is not ramping up arms production and defence spending. I'd be happy to hear more about it from someone who knows the field, but AFAIK, it is happening, the assumption is incorrect. It's sad that this is necessary, but it very much is.

lnsru 2y ago

There are many dreams that are failing. Self driving is solved having private driver by upper class. The same is for flying taxi. Renting helicopter is no big deal. Few hundred euros per hour and you’re anywhere in no time. Maybe flying taxi is a solution to no problem.

netsharc 2y ago
> Self driving is solved having private driver by upper class Hah, funnily enough, Uber is basically a private driver. It's the realization of the middle class being able to have luxuries that used to be reserved to the upper class: exploitating the working class. And no need to feel guilt because the exploitation is outsourced! Oh, wait, if I look in my history books there's this thing called a... taxi?
tim333 2y ago
Self driving seems to be doing quite well. See Waymo.

XorNot 2y ago

The problem with "flying anything" plans is that ground vehicles are pretty inherently stable with regards to most types of failures. Cutting or losing power solves most problems. Not so with aircraft: any failure leaves the vehicle in a notably unsafe state - hence the delta between maintenance standards for road vehicles ("have brakes which work" basically) and aircraft.

alleskleber 2y ago

From the article: > CityAirbus has an 80km range and can fly at 120kmh That's a 40 minute flight compared to roughly a 1 hour drive and vastly more expensive. Is this really useful?

red_trumpet 2y ago
Getting around a congested city is probably way faster than using a car. It's called CityAirbus for a reason ;-) Then again, it's an individual solution to a societal problem. I would prefer a solution for the masses, like getting rid of cars in cities and improving public transport.
- martin_a 2y ago
  > I would prefer a solution for the masses But some people do not want to be part of "the masses", they want to fly around in flying taxis because they think they're better than everybody else. That's why companies like these exist (and hopefully fail).
- yourusername 2y ago
  How long before noise complaints cause the CityAirbus to be restricted to narrow lanes above highways that will be just as congested as the highway below?
- laurentiurad 2y ago
  WFH is the best solution. You get a better distribution of people across a whole region thus solving the traffic problem. It won't even be needed to invest in public transportation networks anymore.
  - AstralStorm 2y ago
    No it is not. You get to replace the social parts of the job too, and pay for the place to be prepared for the job, if at all possible. WFH really means convert your room into an office or rent a coworking space. Is anyone paid extra for that? Nope! And it's really not for everyone either, you cannot get interactive with coworkers in the same way.

lccerina 2y ago

Flying taxis are a solution to a problem that no one has. It's ridiculous anyone is financing this stuff.

mytailorisrich 2y ago
Lilium spend 1.4 Billion since 2015... and looking them up they seem to have gone the not uncommon path of hiring a multitude of big shot executives and of spending on swanky offices in several countries. No product shipped yet. Now, there is a market for flying taxis. Currently it is quite niche and helicopters are used. It will probably remain niche so it's not clear how these companies might fit in.
SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
Hmm, if you can make a better helicopter, using new EV technology, you've solved a problem, there's a market for that, and I'm sure this will happen. But that's relatively niche, and the "flying taxi" companies were promising a whole lot more "disruption" than that.
leoedin 2y ago
I don't think it's strictly true that nobody has the problem of wanting to travel medium distances quickly. In fact, everyone has that problem - that's why the roads are congested and the trains are busy. It might be more accurate to say that the kinds of flying taxis these companies are proposing - noisy, highly constrained location, unsolved airspace congestion issues at scale, probably quite unsafe - are not really a solution. But even so, there's clearly demand for helicopter transfers to airports - if an electric flying taxi can deliver that at half the per-hour cost and equivalent safety, then it's a win.
- rsynnott 2y ago
  > But even so, there's clearly demand for helicopter transfers to airports I mean, maybe some? How much? For instance, to take Paris, the example from the article. You can apparently get a helicopter from Paris to CDG for 4000 euro, taking 17 minutes (from a not-particularly-central point). Last time I was in Paris, the RER took 30 minutes from the airport to the center, and cost a couple of euro. I'm sceptical that helicopters to airports could ever be a huge business, even if you cut the price by ten times.

dachworker 2y ago

Judging by these comments we should all just go back to riding on the backs on donkeys, except even that was at one point only a privilege for the clergy.

RandomLensman 2y ago
If private money isn't enough, how much state money should go into it vs other modes of transport?

camillomiller 2y ago

Private money doesn't want to finance this, and State money should NOT finance this, as it's an individual "luxury" solution to a societal issue. Hence, there's no money or interest and the companies fail. That's a very acceptable and normal cycle.

niemandhier 2y ago

They could have pivoted to small military VTOLs, lots of MAV companies did, i.e.quantum-systems. Rushing specialist and replacement parts to large scale equipment in use, would reduce the burden of relocating this equipment. The fact that they did not try, might be a hint on how well it worked.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

rsynnott 2y ago

Hadn't realised any of these companies were still going; weren't they about three hype cycles ago?