5 ms·

3dof is sufficient, imho, for a large number of VR use cases, because most people don't have a full room dedicated to it, but is at a desk. Sitdown VR setups wo

by chii 2y ago

3dof is sufficient, imho, for a large number of VR use cases, because most people don't have a full room dedicated to it, but is at a desk. Sitdown VR setups would be more common, if the equipment was cheaper.

atrus 2y ago
I very much disagree, your view in vr tracking your head as it does small movements in xyz significantly increases immersion, and more importantly, significantly decreases motion sickness and fatigue.
LorenDB 2y ago
Having experienced both 6DOF and 3DOF on my Quest 3, I can confidently say that 6DOF is leagues ahead even if you are sitting in a chair. Unless you are watching a 180° stereoscopic video, you'll want to look around to get the full experience, and even the small translation movements that result when you turn around can make the experience nauseating. Besides, VR is already cheap. A new Quest 3S is just $300 and can do pretty much all of what the $3500 Vision Pro can do (just worse); if you just want VR games you can get used 6DOF-capable PCVR or PSVR headsets on eBay for closer to $100.
- jachee 2y ago
  > Quest3S … pretty much all of what the … VisionPro can do It can’t do that “protecting your privacy” thing. And that’s a dealbreaker for many, many people.
  - snvzz 2y ago
    >And that’s a dealbreaker for many, many people. Yup. The sole reason I haven't bought any of these meta headsets. They come with strings attached. Or more like, they're fetters and chains.
    - renox 2y ago
      Which string exactly? I don't use Facebook.. What data are they going to sell?
      - snvzz 2y ago
        >I don't use facebook But you need an account to use a meta VR set.
  - alias_neo 2y ago
    Exactly this. I'd like to go for something like the 3S but anything Meta is a hard no from me. I deleted my Oculus account when they took over, and yet somehow I still get Oculus emails from Meta.
  - TiredOfLife 2y ago
    Quest is “protecting your privacy” the same amount as VisionPro does.
    - 1oooqooq 2y ago
      why i don't have either. this line of argument don't help the discussion. both companies report millions from selling your information, so assume they are always amassing loads of it, to sell when the price is convenient for them.
      - criddell 2y ago
        > both companies report millions from selling your information Where can I buy it?
        exe34 2y ago
        This might help start looking: https://www.forbes.com/sites/metabrown/2015/09/30/when-and-where-to-buy-consumer-data-and-12-companies-who-sell-it/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/metabrown/2015/09/30/when-and-w...
        criddell 2y ago
        Doesn’t help at all. I’m looking to buy data collected and sold by Meta and Apple.
        exe34 2y ago
        I doubt they sell it to individuals. Data brokers is the easiest way. You could always write to them directly and ask.
        Mindwipe 2y ago
        You absolutely can't because neither company does it.
  - anonzzzies 2y ago
    > It can’t do that “protecting your privacy” thing Besides 'it's Meta' ; what is it doing with my privacy? I mean actually proven things, not 'probably it is'. (I am not saying it isn't, but I haven't heard anything in this regard, so it would be interesting to know)
    - PaulHoule 2y ago
      As a dev I see Meta made many decisions to respect privacy that constrain the kind of app I make although I've heard these will be somewhat relaxed. I'd like to place a picture with a QR code in it, have somebody scan the code, then have the option of jumping into a world. Apps can't access the cameras so you can't write a QR scanner. The Quest has a decent web browser but you can't access the cameras and make a web based QR scanner. Without access to the cameras apps cannot at all understand the environment and enable you to interact with it. AR apps now have a special module that identifies a physical volume inside your space on a session by session but that's a pale shadow of the SLAM tracking of the Microsoft Hololens and Apple Vision that let you stick a "hologram" into the corner of your office and have it stay there. Quest 3 devs need more access to make more interesting apps.
      - wlesieutre 2y ago
        Vision Pro doesn't let you access the cameras either, being able to stick an app in the corner of your office is handled by the OS. I'd rather not hand out camera access, the problem that needs fixing is the "session by session" part where Meta's OS doesn't maintain permanent app-volumes.
        godelski 2y ago
        Isn't this more an issue with how the data from the camera is used? Or rather, where it can go? Maybe I'm a bit naive here, but isn't the issue that we don't want camera data going to third parties (or really... any party). So is there not a way that this can be sandboxed? Camera data must stay on device in an enclave. Honestly, this seems what's wanted for a lot of type of data. Is this just not possible to actually implement in the OS? Because I'd imagine not being able to process vision data really limits what you could do. I think of this kinda like the data collection with many phone apps. I understand that it needs access to the networks to make connection to wifi or bluetooth, but why is this bundled together with an app's ability to record and send that data back to the developer? There has to be a better way to handle all this.
dmarcos 2y ago
6DOf not only necessary for room scale. Lack of parallax of 3DOF a common cause of discomfort for many. I’ve been in the space for a decade and given hundreds of demos to people.
Tarks 2y ago
Also have to hard disagree. I remember going from the Oculus DevKit2 to the Vive, seeing the change in people we'd invite over for "I'm done trying to convince you with words just Come over and try out VR" evenings. 6DOF, even when sitting, is a significant difference. Your brain immediately feels far more at home with good 6DOF. Fun fact : one week I spent about 5-6 hours every evening playing Elite Dangerous in VR. Mining asteroids while listening to lofi cyberpunk and pretending that mining was my whole life, it was great. Until my partner would bop me on the back of the head ^_^
zombiwoof 2y ago
They also said their mission is for creators. Seems to me 3D is fine for that
- andybak 2y ago
  I don't understand what the word "creator" means in this context or how that's relevant to 3DOF vs 6DOF
koolala 2y ago
Close one eye and those sound like TV use cases.
a2128 2y ago
3DoF without tracked controllers is not VR IMO, it's just a head mounted display. It's not sufficient for any VR use case other than like watching a movie. You won't be able to play any modern VR games. Maybe you'd be able to play old Google Cardboard or Oculus Gear games since those were made with no controllers in mind.
- freeopinion 2y ago
  So, a $200 display? With how many pixels? Is it better than a 29" curved monitor?
- SirMaster 2y ago
  Am I the only one who just wants a great super high res OLED headset just for watching movies? I want super high res so the quality is comparable to a TV or projector setup, and I want OLED because of contrast performance for dark scenes.
  - int_19h 2y ago
    You're not the only one, and there's a separate market for such things, but it's mostly Chinese brands. I've had pretty good experience with https://goovis.net/products/g3max https://goovis.net/products/g3max specifically for movie watching. It has 2560x1440 (per eye) OLED, so not quite 4K; I do hope to see a proper 4K headset like that some day for a reasonable price.
    - SirMaster 2y ago
      I am currently using Xreal Air which I got for $200. https://www.amazon.com/Glasses-Massive-Micro-OLED-Augmented-iOS-Consoles-Compatible/dp/B0C3MKPLHP https://www.amazon.com/Glasses-Massive-Micro-OLED-Augmented-... For $200 they are good. They are native 1080p Sony micro-OLED panels. Brightness and contrast are excellent. I got them mainly to use when traveling, but I also use them laying in bed sometimes. The resolution is higher than it seems because the 1080p is only displayed across about a 40 degree horizontal FOV, so the PPD is actually very high at about 49, which is markedly higher than even something like the Apple Vision Pro. It's also RGB stripe OLED. I cannot see the pixels like I can with VR headsets. But alas, there are issues that bother me like ghosting and other internal reflections inside the lenses. Though all VR headsets I have tried have these issues which bother me, so I am not sure if that will ever actually be solved to a level that is unnoticeable by me. The other thing about the glasses is that they don't recreate a theater, and a virtual room, so the apparent size of the virtual screen isn't consistent as it mainly depends on your imagination for how big you imagine it being. If you view a virtual screen in a fully virtual environment like Bigscreen Beta, then you can fully trick your brain into making the virtual screen seem as big as you want, even IMAX sized, and it really does feel like it. The problem with full VR environment headsets and large FOV over 100 degrees means that the virtual screen only takes up at most about half of the panel, because a 55 FOV for a virtual screen on a headset with a 110 FOV is about as big as most people would be comfortable. So then a true 4K per eye headset would still only give you a 1080p victual screen. Though I think this is still a level which is good enough.
geon 2y ago
I have absolutely zero interest in 6dof gaming. On the other hand, I dreamt of 3dof gaming since the 90s. Once the technology started emerging, I was so exited about the potential. A few games gained support for shutter glasses etc, but 6dof was hyped up so much that everyone jumped on that train instead.

by chii 2y ago

atrus 2y ago

I very much disagree, your view in vr tracking your head as it does small movements in xyz significantly increases immersion, and more importantly, significantly decreases motion sickness and fatigue.

LorenDB 2y ago

Having experienced both 6DOF and 3DOF on my Quest 3, I can confidently say that 6DOF is leagues ahead even if you are sitting in a chair. Unless you are watching a 180° stereoscopic video, you'll want to look around to get the full experience, and even the small translation movements that result when you turn around can make the experience nauseating. Besides, VR is already cheap. A new Quest 3S is just $300 and can do pretty much all of what the $3500 Vision Pro can do (just worse); if you just want VR games you can get used 6DOF-capable PCVR or PSVR headsets on eBay for closer to $100.

jachee 2y ago
> Quest3S … pretty much all of what the … VisionPro can do It can’t do that “protecting your privacy” thing. And that’s a dealbreaker for many, many people.
- snvzz 2y ago
  >And that’s a dealbreaker for many, many people. Yup. The sole reason I haven't bought any of these meta headsets. They come with strings attached. Or more like, they're fetters and chains.
  - renox 2y ago
    Which string exactly? I don't use Facebook.. What data are they going to sell?
    - snvzz 2y ago
      >I don't use facebook But you need an account to use a meta VR set.
- alias_neo 2y ago
  Exactly this. I'd like to go for something like the 3S but anything Meta is a hard no from me. I deleted my Oculus account when they took over, and yet somehow I still get Oculus emails from Meta.
- TiredOfLife 2y ago
  Quest is “protecting your privacy” the same amount as VisionPro does.
  - 1oooqooq 2y ago
    why i don't have either. this line of argument don't help the discussion. both companies report millions from selling your information, so assume they are always amassing loads of it, to sell when the price is convenient for them.
    - criddell 2y ago
      > both companies report millions from selling your information Where can I buy it?
      - exe34 2y ago
        This might help start looking: https://www.forbes.com/sites/metabrown/2015/09/30/when-and-where-to-buy-consumer-data-and-12-companies-who-sell-it/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/metabrown/2015/09/30/when-and-w...
        criddell 2y ago
        Doesn’t help at all. I’m looking to buy data collected and sold by Meta and Apple.
        exe34 2y ago
        I doubt they sell it to individuals. Data brokers is the easiest way. You could always write to them directly and ask.
        Mindwipe 2y ago
        You absolutely can't because neither company does it.
- anonzzzies 2y ago
  > It can’t do that “protecting your privacy” thing Besides 'it's Meta' ; what is it doing with my privacy? I mean actually proven things, not 'probably it is'. (I am not saying it isn't, but I haven't heard anything in this regard, so it would be interesting to know)
  - PaulHoule 2y ago
    As a dev I see Meta made many decisions to respect privacy that constrain the kind of app I make although I've heard these will be somewhat relaxed. I'd like to place a picture with a QR code in it, have somebody scan the code, then have the option of jumping into a world. Apps can't access the cameras so you can't write a QR scanner. The Quest has a decent web browser but you can't access the cameras and make a web based QR scanner. Without access to the cameras apps cannot at all understand the environment and enable you to interact with it. AR apps now have a special module that identifies a physical volume inside your space on a session by session but that's a pale shadow of the SLAM tracking of the Microsoft Hololens and Apple Vision that let you stick a "hologram" into the corner of your office and have it stay there. Quest 3 devs need more access to make more interesting apps.
    - wlesieutre 2y ago
      Vision Pro doesn't let you access the cameras either, being able to stick an app in the corner of your office is handled by the OS. I'd rather not hand out camera access, the problem that needs fixing is the "session by session" part where Meta's OS doesn't maintain permanent app-volumes.
      - godelski 2y ago
        Isn't this more an issue with how the data from the camera is used? Or rather, where it can go? Maybe I'm a bit naive here, but isn't the issue that we don't want camera data going to third parties (or really... any party). So is there not a way that this can be sandboxed? Camera data must stay on device in an enclave. Honestly, this seems what's wanted for a lot of type of data. Is this just not possible to actually implement in the OS? Because I'd imagine not being able to process vision data really limits what you could do. I think of this kinda like the data collection with many phone apps. I understand that it needs access to the networks to make connection to wifi or bluetooth, but why is this bundled together with an app's ability to record and send that data back to the developer? There has to be a better way to handle all this.

dmarcos 2y ago

6DOf not only necessary for room scale. Lack of parallax of 3DOF a common cause of discomfort for many. I’ve been in the space for a decade and given hundreds of demos to people.

Tarks 2y ago

Also have to hard disagree. I remember going from the Oculus DevKit2 to the Vive, seeing the change in people we'd invite over for "I'm done trying to convince you with words just Come over and try out VR" evenings. 6DOF, even when sitting, is a significant difference. Your brain immediately feels far more at home with good 6DOF. Fun fact : one week I spent about 5-6 hours every evening playing Elite Dangerous in VR. Mining asteroids while listening to lofi cyberpunk and pretending that mining was my whole life, it was great. Until my partner would bop me on the back of the head ^_^

zombiwoof 2y ago

They also said their mission is for creators. Seems to me 3D is fine for that

andybak 2y ago
I don't understand what the word "creator" means in this context or how that's relevant to 3DOF vs 6DOF

koolala 2y ago

Close one eye and those sound like TV use cases.

a2128 2y ago

3DoF without tracked controllers is not VR IMO, it's just a head mounted display. It's not sufficient for any VR use case other than like watching a movie. You won't be able to play any modern VR games. Maybe you'd be able to play old Google Cardboard or Oculus Gear games since those were made with no controllers in mind.

freeopinion 2y ago
So, a $200 display? With how many pixels? Is it better than a 29" curved monitor?
SirMaster 2y ago
Am I the only one who just wants a great super high res OLED headset just for watching movies? I want super high res so the quality is comparable to a TV or projector setup, and I want OLED because of contrast performance for dark scenes.
- int_19h 2y ago
  You're not the only one, and there's a separate market for such things, but it's mostly Chinese brands. I've had pretty good experience with https://goovis.net/products/g3max https://goovis.net/products/g3max specifically for movie watching. It has 2560x1440 (per eye) OLED, so not quite 4K; I do hope to see a proper 4K headset like that some day for a reasonable price.
  - SirMaster 2y ago
    I am currently using Xreal Air which I got for $200. https://www.amazon.com/Glasses-Massive-Micro-OLED-Augmented-iOS-Consoles-Compatible/dp/B0C3MKPLHP https://www.amazon.com/Glasses-Massive-Micro-OLED-Augmented-... For $200 they are good. They are native 1080p Sony micro-OLED panels. Brightness and contrast are excellent. I got them mainly to use when traveling, but I also use them laying in bed sometimes. The resolution is higher than it seems because the 1080p is only displayed across about a 40 degree horizontal FOV, so the PPD is actually very high at about 49, which is markedly higher than even something like the Apple Vision Pro. It's also RGB stripe OLED. I cannot see the pixels like I can with VR headsets. But alas, there are issues that bother me like ghosting and other internal reflections inside the lenses. Though all VR headsets I have tried have these issues which bother me, so I am not sure if that will ever actually be solved to a level that is unnoticeable by me. The other thing about the glasses is that they don't recreate a theater, and a virtual room, so the apparent size of the virtual screen isn't consistent as it mainly depends on your imagination for how big you imagine it being. If you view a virtual screen in a fully virtual environment like Bigscreen Beta, then you can fully trick your brain into making the virtual screen seem as big as you want, even IMAX sized, and it really does feel like it. The problem with full VR environment headsets and large FOV over 100 degrees means that the virtual screen only takes up at most about half of the panel, because a 55 FOV for a virtual screen on a headset with a 110 FOV is about as big as most people would be comfortable. So then a true 4K per eye headset would still only give you a 1080p victual screen. Though I think this is still a level which is good enough.

geon 2y ago

I have absolutely zero interest in 6dof gaming. On the other hand, I dreamt of 3dof gaming since the 90s. Once the technology started emerging, I was so exited about the potential. A few games gained support for shutter glasses etc, but 6dof was hyped up so much that everyone jumped on that train instead.