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I dress it up in other terms but this is ultimately my primary complaint about Scrum. It uses peer pressure to moralize about acceptable sleep patterns.
by hinkley 2y ago
I dress it up in other terms but this is ultimately my primary complaint about Scrum. It uses peer pressure to moralize about acceptable sleep patterns.
- jjulius 2y agoI'm completely ignorant here, but my understanding is that Scrum is (perhaps at a high, reductive level) a software workflow/collaboration tool. Genuinely curious how that ends up being used to moralize about acceptable sleep patterns.
- MortyWaves 2y agoStandups?
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- CleanRoomClub 2y agoWhat about standups? Are you implying that having to be somewhere at a certain time in the morning impedes your ability to go to sleep at a reasonable time so you can get a healthy amount of sleep?
- YokoZar 2y agoYes. Isn't that obvious? Everyone has different natural sleep patterns, some have later cronotypes. Meetings set too early in the day for your body's preferred time to be asleep will result in having to wake up with an alarm to attend them. My team moved our daily standup later in the day to accommodate my delayed sleep phase and it's been extremely helpful to getting a full night's uninterrupted sleep.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- hinkley 2y agoThere you go moralizing about acceptable patterns of sleep. Crepuscular and nocturnal predators require tribes of humans to have some number of members who are tuned to be either awake before sunrise or awake long after sunset. Without people with genes to go bed late and wake up late we wouldn't be here having this conversation. In modern society the former are lionized and the latter are villified as making bad choices.
- willcipriano 2y agoI can pick when I go to sleep and wake, I've worked 3rd shift, 9 - 5 and resturant hours with no issue. Wouldn't a tribe that is able to do as I can have the greatest evolutionary advantage and thus outcompete the tribes requiring specialization like you describe?
- YokoZar 2y agoUnfortunately, not everyone has quite the same natural flexibility you describe. "Shift worker syndrome" has been known for decades, though a fortunate subset of people just seem immune.
- thrw42A8N 2y agoLucky you. Whatever I do, if I'm forced to be out of bed before 8 AM, I'm going to be completely useless for few days. Usually I wake up around 9:30 to get good sleep. And whatever I do, I'm simply unable to go sleep earlier than midnight, even if I lay down, I just can't sleep for hours. It's 0:29 where I live and I'm just turning on Netflix after a failed try at sleeping - even though I'm pretty tired as I didn't sleep enough yesterday.
- quesera 2y ago> It's 0:29 where I live and I'm just turning on Netflix after a failed try at sleeping I'm sympathetic to your situation -- but with all due respect, this would seem to be a strategy with a vanishingly small likelihood of benefit.
- Seattle3503 2y agoI can get into my bed at a certain time, I can put my head on my pillow, but I can't force sleep.
- hinkley 2y agoThe same traits that make me good at emergency situations and deep work make me lousy for early bedtime. I have some coping mechanisms now but there were years where I had to go to bed exhausted to get to sleep. And some days that’s 10:30, others that’s 2:30.
- MortyWaves 2y agoWhat a pathetic and unreasonable message.
- hinkley 2y agoIf you don't show up at a particular time in the morning then you're a horrible person and not a Team Player. Every day, year after year. Good teams make it after everyone would have reasonably absorbed their coffee. But some teams get pushed earlier. Particularly if there are people in EST, CST, and definitely if you've got people in India, where 9 am PST is when you should be reading your kids bedtime stories.
- blueflow 2y agoThis is not normal, your company culture is unhealthy. You should not have to put yourself up with this.
- l33t7332273 2y agoHaving a morning meeting is pretty normal
- rikthevik 2y agoAnd pretty reasonable if people are plus or minus a few timezones. Working cross-continent is absolutely brutal.
- loco5niner 2y agoThey are not talking about a morning meeting. Read it again.
- PittleyDunkin 2y agoThat seems less to do with scrum and more to do with salaried work culture where you're expected to attend meetings.
- nradov 2y agoScrum doesn't dictate any particular time for team meetings. But if you choose to work on a geographically distributed then someone will be inconvenienced regardless of the chosen methodology. You're not special.
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- GenerocUsername 2y agoSounds like a retro topic. Move standup to 10:30am so Todd can sleep in
- hinkley 2y agoOften it's a boss proving they're in charge by setting the times. It's also a handy way to keep raises small. Oh you are being a human and we don't give raises to people who are human. Meets expectations, 2% raise.
- tharkun__ 2y agoIf that was the retro topic, we're already off to a bad start. You're making a judgement before we even started retro. sleep in to sleep until later in the morning than you usually do Read it like this: Usually people don't wake up that late. But Tooooodd likes to sleep in, so now everyone's gotta interrupt their workflows at 10:30 just for Todd. Discuss!
- yencabulator 2y agoNot only that but also hurting all others kinds of flex time and smarter commuting, even if you're awake. At one office job, we regularly worked from home around 9-10am and would only commute after the morning rush hour faded away.
- hinkley 2y agoIn an age of 24/7 SLAs the credibility of core hours is being stretched thin.
- fuzztester 2y agocomplain about specific scrummers (even many), not about scrum. like: complain about gunmen, not guns. methodologies and weapons do not kill people. people kill people. that said, here's a riddle: q: what is the difference between a methodologist and a terrorist? a: you can negotiate with a terroris, but not with a methodologist. also, what nradov said, here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42143002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42143002
- insane_dreamer 2y agoDaily scrums are a stupid waste of time and completely unnecessary unless your team doesn’t know what they’re doing or are unable to coordinate, and if either of those is true then you have the wrong team or management and Scrums won’t save you anyway. It’s mostly crap designed to allow consultants from McKinsey to charge your company big bucks for “efficiency implementation”.