4 ms·

I dunno. I don't like the idea of companies holding inquisitions on just how disabled people are, but if we're going to hold the expansive view of disabilities

I dunno. I don't like the idea of companies holding inquisitions on just how disabled people are, but if we're going to hold the expansive view of disabilities the article takes for granted it seems inevitable. When someone claims that they're unable to work in an office because they're suffering from a stress disorder, it's reasonable to have some followup questions about how they manage the disorder on other occasions that call for them to leave home.

kevingadd 2y ago
I would assume stress disorders is a blanket that includes things like bipolar disorder, which has real proven sometimes-catastrophic health impacts PTSD is serious too.
- kayodelycaon 2y ago
  Bipolar is a mood disorder. So is depression.
zeroonetwothree 2y ago
It’s unfortunate for people that have legit disabilities that the system is abused in this way :(
- no_wizard 2y ago
  I think the worry around any of the system being abused is louder than the actual instances of abuse. I'm sure it happens, but people get all up in arms about the potential for abuse without even looking at how often it might even happen to begin with.
  - mathgeek 2y ago
    One needs only look at the recent political weaponization of the small number of transgender kids playing sports to see another example of a small number of instances being generalized for outrage. Doesn’t make the needs less important, but it does happen.
no_wizard 2y ago
Have you ever asked for a disability accommodation from a US employer? Its already very common that such accommodation requests get filed with associated medical paperwork from a medical professional outlining why the accommodation is what the person needs. That alone should be more than enough[0] Secondly, why don't we simply trust adults to make decisions about how to manage their conditions, especially if there is no demonstrable issue with how they work with their team and their work is up to standard. [0]: Its been some time since I haven't simply produced such paperwork to go along with a request, but if you don't produce it upfront if I recall correctly employers reserve the right to ask for more information, which typically boils down to getting associated paperwork from a medical professional
- adamredwoods 2y ago
  I have, complete with medical details, and doctor approval. I was "denied" because I was told to use Federal Medical Leave.
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    I'm not a lawyer, but I'd recommend you consult an attorney about it. That does sound like a possible violation
- aliston 2y ago
  You can find a medical professional to basically claim anything these days. I could go into specifics, but there's a whole industry of ethically questionable doctors that can help you take advantage of well-intentioned accommodation policies with a subjective diagnosis. While I agree there are cases of serious stress disorders, there are also a bunch of people claiming a disorder for personal benefit.
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    See my other comment on this very thing. I suspect strongly that the people worrying about it being abused outnumber the actual instances of it being abused. I don't think there is rampant unchecked fraud.
danudey 2y ago
> someone claims that they're unable to work in an office because they're suffering from a stress disorder, it's reasonable to have some followup questions about how they manage the disorder on other occasions that call for them to leave home. No it's not. It makes no sense to say "oh, you can't commute to work and then home again five times a week? so how do you get groceries?" because those are two completely separate things in completely separate environments. It's none of Amazon's business how people manage their disabilities outside of work. The only thing that matters is what the most effective way of managing their disabilities is inside of work. Amazon is not your doctor, and if your doctor says that this is the most effective way for you to manage things while being productive then they need to accept that the doctor knows what they're doing.
- benced 2y ago
  This falls apart the second you realize it's trivial to find a doctor who will say or do literally whatever you want if you pay the right amount.
  - no_wizard 2y ago
    Actual instances of disability accommodation at work being abused aren't exactly rampant. Part of which is that people face lots of stigma around disabilities still, but also the need to have some historical and diagnoses paperwork is a barrier that I suspect lots of people don't want to go through. Frankly, I don't believe its rampant to begin with, and I can't find any real evidence that supports that people are widely abusing these accommodation requests.
    - Workaccount2 2y ago
      The jackasses that bring their "support dog" shopping with them are pretty rampant. People abuse the fuck out of the support dog program. I even know two people with "support dogs" who straight up admit they did it because they want to take their dogs out with them.
      - 2y ago
olyjohn 2y ago
Well fuck it. If someone breaks an arm, and needs some time off, maybe we can have an inquisition on them too. They do have two arms after all. They can probably still get their work done with just one. What about people taking sick leave? I mean, you aren't dying, you can still flip open your laptop and type. No reason to be staying home for that. Better quiz them and see how sick they really were. Not vomiting up blood? Probably just slacking. What do you even need vacation time for? Why don't you just work 7 days a week. It's just typing on a keyboard. You still have 4 hours a day of free time. Oh, your mental health might suffer if you work 7 days a week? Maybe don't be such a pussy, they're paying you the big bucks after all. I guess mental health disorders are less valid somehow. Even though all we do all day is mental work, sitting on a computer and typing. Must have something to do with the fact that you can't see it. It just gets tiring filling out forms, explaining shit over and over to people, and telling clueless HR people and execs my whole personal life that they won't even understand anyways. It's fucked up. My doctor wrote me a diagnosis, go fuck yourself if you want any more information. There is nothing more the employer needs to know.
A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago
<< When someone claims that they're unable to work in an office because they're suffering from a stress disorder, it's reasonable to have some followup questions about how they manage the disorder on other occasions that call for them to leave home. I personally went through the whole HR to get approved for WFH after pandemic subsided and my former job decided to bring everyone in. I went with doctor's notes on stress and everything. I was offered a room to have a quiet moment in and (edit: ) told I can use FMLA if I want. I quit as soon as I found a new position ( the timing was fortunate too, because that was at the very end of the 'appeals' process so I was able to send an emphatic no email ). It did not feel as good as had hoped. Still, I completely buy that there are people who will 'abuse' the system, but I also agree with you that HR drone determining whether I fit a set of criteria listed on its chart ( and every company in US is a little different... ) does eventually get to you. For one, they are not my doctor. I remember snapping pretty hard at one girl and I had a visit from VP about my behavior. Honestly, I do not think WFH is too much to ask given it has been proven to work.
infotainment 2y ago
Agreed. These sorts of accommodations are heavily abused in academic settings already. For example, I’ve seen situations where a parent says something like “my son has a disability that just happens to mean he should get a bunch of advantages on the upcoming exam but does not affect his life in any other way whatsoever”.

kevingadd 2y ago

I would assume stress disorders is a blanket that includes things like bipolar disorder, which has real proven sometimes-catastrophic health impacts PTSD is serious too.

kayodelycaon 2y ago
Bipolar is a mood disorder. So is depression.

zeroonetwothree 2y ago

It’s unfortunate for people that have legit disabilities that the system is abused in this way :(

no_wizard 2y ago
I think the worry around any of the system being abused is louder than the actual instances of abuse. I'm sure it happens, but people get all up in arms about the potential for abuse without even looking at how often it might even happen to begin with.
- mathgeek 2y ago
  One needs only look at the recent political weaponization of the small number of transgender kids playing sports to see another example of a small number of instances being generalized for outrage. Doesn’t make the needs less important, but it does happen.

no_wizard 2y ago

Have you ever asked for a disability accommodation from a US employer? Its already very common that such accommodation requests get filed with associated medical paperwork from a medical professional outlining why the accommodation is what the person needs. That alone should be more than enough[0] Secondly, why don't we simply trust adults to make decisions about how to manage their conditions, especially if there is no demonstrable issue with how they work with their team and their work is up to standard. [0]: Its been some time since I haven't simply produced such paperwork to go along with a request, but if you don't produce it upfront if I recall correctly employers reserve the right to ask for more information, which typically boils down to getting associated paperwork from a medical professional

adamredwoods 2y ago
I have, complete with medical details, and doctor approval. I was "denied" because I was told to use Federal Medical Leave.
- no_wizard 2y ago
  I'm not a lawyer, but I'd recommend you consult an attorney about it. That does sound like a possible violation
aliston 2y ago
You can find a medical professional to basically claim anything these days. I could go into specifics, but there's a whole industry of ethically questionable doctors that can help you take advantage of well-intentioned accommodation policies with a subjective diagnosis. While I agree there are cases of serious stress disorders, there are also a bunch of people claiming a disorder for personal benefit.
- no_wizard 2y ago
  See my other comment on this very thing. I suspect strongly that the people worrying about it being abused outnumber the actual instances of it being abused. I don't think there is rampant unchecked fraud.

danudey 2y ago

> someone claims that they're unable to work in an office because they're suffering from a stress disorder, it's reasonable to have some followup questions about how they manage the disorder on other occasions that call for them to leave home. No it's not. It makes no sense to say "oh, you can't commute to work and then home again five times a week? so how do you get groceries?" because those are two completely separate things in completely separate environments. It's none of Amazon's business how people manage their disabilities outside of work. The only thing that matters is what the most effective way of managing their disabilities is inside of work. Amazon is not your doctor, and if your doctor says that this is the most effective way for you to manage things while being productive then they need to accept that the doctor knows what they're doing.

benced 2y ago
This falls apart the second you realize it's trivial to find a doctor who will say or do literally whatever you want if you pay the right amount.
- no_wizard 2y ago
  Actual instances of disability accommodation at work being abused aren't exactly rampant. Part of which is that people face lots of stigma around disabilities still, but also the need to have some historical and diagnoses paperwork is a barrier that I suspect lots of people don't want to go through. Frankly, I don't believe its rampant to begin with, and I can't find any real evidence that supports that people are widely abusing these accommodation requests.
  - Workaccount2 2y ago
    The jackasses that bring their "support dog" shopping with them are pretty rampant. People abuse the fuck out of the support dog program. I even know two people with "support dogs" who straight up admit they did it because they want to take their dogs out with them.
    - 2y ago

olyjohn 2y ago

Well fuck it. If someone breaks an arm, and needs some time off, maybe we can have an inquisition on them too. They do have two arms after all. They can probably still get their work done with just one. What about people taking sick leave? I mean, you aren't dying, you can still flip open your laptop and type. No reason to be staying home for that. Better quiz them and see how sick they really were. Not vomiting up blood? Probably just slacking. What do you even need vacation time for? Why don't you just work 7 days a week. It's just typing on a keyboard. You still have 4 hours a day of free time. Oh, your mental health might suffer if you work 7 days a week? Maybe don't be such a pussy, they're paying you the big bucks after all. I guess mental health disorders are less valid somehow. Even though all we do all day is mental work, sitting on a computer and typing. Must have something to do with the fact that you can't see it. It just gets tiring filling out forms, explaining shit over and over to people, and telling clueless HR people and execs my whole personal life that they won't even understand anyways. It's fucked up. My doctor wrote me a diagnosis, go fuck yourself if you want any more information. There is nothing more the employer needs to know.

A4ET8a8uTh0 2y ago

<< When someone claims that they're unable to work in an office because they're suffering from a stress disorder, it's reasonable to have some followup questions about how they manage the disorder on other occasions that call for them to leave home. I personally went through the whole HR to get approved for WFH after pandemic subsided and my former job decided to bring everyone in. I went with doctor's notes on stress and everything. I was offered a room to have a quiet moment in and (edit: ) told I can use FMLA if I want. I quit as soon as I found a new position ( the timing was fortunate too, because that was at the very end of the 'appeals' process so I was able to send an emphatic no email ). It did not feel as good as had hoped. Still, I completely buy that there are people who will 'abuse' the system, but I also agree with you that HR drone determining whether I fit a set of criteria listed on its chart ( and every company in US is a little different... ) does eventually get to you. For one, they are not my doctor. I remember snapping pretty hard at one girl and I had a visit from VP about my behavior. Honestly, I do not think WFH is too much to ask given it has been proven to work.

infotainment 2y ago

Agreed. These sorts of accommodations are heavily abused in academic settings already. For example, I’ve seen situations where a parent says something like “my son has a disability that just happens to mean he should get a bunch of advantages on the upcoming exam but does not affect his life in any other way whatsoever”.