4 ms·

Also interesting, the M4 Mini has the flash storage on a replaceable module, instead of being soldered to the motherboard, although the NVMe controller is still

Also interesting, the M4 Mini has the flash storage on a replaceable module, instead of being soldered to the motherboard, although the NVMe controller is still integrated into the SoC. iFixIt and others have already posted videos showing that the flash storage is now upgradable. > M4 Mac mini Teardown - UPGRADABLE SSD, Powerful, and TINY https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rtdGxBeSkz8 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rtdGxBeSkz8

winwang 2y ago
The controller being decoupled is an extremely interesting idea! Makes a lot of sense. I wonder if it includes a (nontrivial) cache.
- telgareith 2y ago
  Seems likely its a cacheless (well, host bus memory) design like the ones used by Apple on their other designs.
- GeekyBear 2y ago
  Apple bought a company that designed enterprise SSD controllers over a decade ago. > Anobit appears to be applying a lot of signal processing techniques in addition to ECC to address the issue of NAND reliability and data retention. In its patents there are mentions of periodically refreshing cells whose voltages may have drifted, exploiting some of the behaviors of adjacent cells and generally trying to deal with the things that happen to NAND once it's been worn considerably. https://www.anandtech.com/show/5258/apple-acquires-anobit-bringing-nand-endurance-technology-inhouse https://www.anandtech.com/show/5258/apple-acquires-anobit-br...
AshamedCaptain 2y ago
"Upgradeable" is too big of a word here, specially considering that they're using different form-factors even between the models released on the same year (e.g. pro vs non-pro) ; and also different from models released on the previous year (e.g. studio). This almost certainly means that next year's model will also use a different interface, so you won't be able to upgrade your storage at all.
- josephg 2y ago
  You might be able to. You just need to make sure you get a compatible module somehow. I wonder if 3rd parties will start selling them. If the memory controller is in the cpu, there’s no reason for the little board housing the ssd to have any proprietary chips…
  - baq 2y ago
    If you can get a 2TB chip for ~50% of what it retails at Apple the M4 mini would be the absolutely 100% totally best computer ever made. At the moment it's only the best computer ever made, but too expensive if you want any sort of storage.
    - GeekyBear 2y ago
      Depending on your level of price sensitivity, you can always use a Thunderbolt SSD, an external RAID array of SSDs, or just get the 10 Gigabit Ethernet upgrade and hook into local NAS.
- GeekyBear 2y ago
  The M4 Pro Minis support higher capacity modules, so it's not too shocking that they are not identical. We've already seen videos from the usual suspects showing that people who are sufficiently skilled with a soldering iron can replace the flash chips in the modules with higher capacity chips, in addition to replacing the whole module.
  - AshamedCaptain 2y ago
    > We've already seen videos from the usual suspects showing that people who are sufficiently skilled with a soldering iron can replace the flash chips Sure, but I don't think soldering skills is exactly what I'd have in mind when I think "upgradeable".
    - GeekyBear 2y ago
      As noted above, you can simply replace that module with a higher capacity module with just a screwdriver, as iFixIt did. However, there is a real opportunity for those who do have soldering skills to make a quick buck here. You could pretty easily buy the cheap base model M4 and resell it as a custom upgrade build, as long as you were clear that the SSD was no longer stock.
IshKebab 2y ago
"Upgradable" if you are willing to desolder and replace the BGA chips. You can't just swap the module out.
- favorited 2y ago
  The storage is not soldered to the M4 mini SOC.
  - IshKebab 2y ago
    No, it is soldered to the storage module. You have to desolder the flash chips from that module and replace them. You can't just order a bigger storage module from Apple (or anyone else) and plug it in.
    - josephg 2y ago
      I don’t think anything is stopping you buying a second hand / 3rd party module online. It just needs to be physically compatible with your particular generation of hardware.
      - Izikiel43 2y ago
        Well, someone has to build the 3rd party module
      - staticfish 2y ago
        I don't think this is true. If you watch the videos, dosdude1 specifically says he had to order blank NANDs for this process. Then you DFU restore the system from another mac. I have no proof, but I assume part of this DFU restore process is the new NAND chips being hardware paired in some way. Again I have no proof, but there must be reasons he claims they have to be blank NANDs
        GeekyBear 2y ago
        > there must be reasons he claims they have to be blank NANDs If you are building new SSDs, it makes sense to be certain that used NAND chips aren't slipping into your supply chain. They do have a limited number of write cycles that they are good for, after all.
choonway 2y ago
I think the reason to make it replace/removable is to reduce e-waste at EOL. Lots of companies have policies on data storage on decomissioned computers to be physically destroyed, so making it replaceable allows the machines to be repurposed after.
e40 2y ago
Someone actually doing the upgrade: https://youtu.be/cJPXLE9uPr8?si=IyTLwG9SC4r4dJXP https://youtu.be/cJPXLE9uPr8?si=IyTLwG9SC4r4dJXP
- deleted 2y ago
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winwang 2y ago

The controller being decoupled is an extremely interesting idea! Makes a lot of sense. I wonder if it includes a (nontrivial) cache.

telgareith 2y ago
Seems likely its a cacheless (well, host bus memory) design like the ones used by Apple on their other designs.
GeekyBear 2y ago
Apple bought a company that designed enterprise SSD controllers over a decade ago. > Anobit appears to be applying a lot of signal processing techniques in addition to ECC to address the issue of NAND reliability and data retention. In its patents there are mentions of periodically refreshing cells whose voltages may have drifted, exploiting some of the behaviors of adjacent cells and generally trying to deal with the things that happen to NAND once it's been worn considerably. https://www.anandtech.com/show/5258/apple-acquires-anobit-bringing-nand-endurance-technology-inhouse https://www.anandtech.com/show/5258/apple-acquires-anobit-br...

AshamedCaptain 2y ago

"Upgradeable" is too big of a word here, specially considering that they're using different form-factors even between the models released on the same year (e.g. pro vs non-pro) ; and also different from models released on the previous year (e.g. studio). This almost certainly means that next year's model will also use a different interface, so you won't be able to upgrade your storage at all.

josephg 2y ago
You might be able to. You just need to make sure you get a compatible module somehow. I wonder if 3rd parties will start selling them. If the memory controller is in the cpu, there’s no reason for the little board housing the ssd to have any proprietary chips…
- baq 2y ago
  If you can get a 2TB chip for ~50% of what it retails at Apple the M4 mini would be the absolutely 100% totally best computer ever made. At the moment it's only the best computer ever made, but too expensive if you want any sort of storage.
  - GeekyBear 2y ago
    Depending on your level of price sensitivity, you can always use a Thunderbolt SSD, an external RAID array of SSDs, or just get the 10 Gigabit Ethernet upgrade and hook into local NAS.
GeekyBear 2y ago
The M4 Pro Minis support higher capacity modules, so it's not too shocking that they are not identical. We've already seen videos from the usual suspects showing that people who are sufficiently skilled with a soldering iron can replace the flash chips in the modules with higher capacity chips, in addition to replacing the whole module.
- AshamedCaptain 2y ago
  > We've already seen videos from the usual suspects showing that people who are sufficiently skilled with a soldering iron can replace the flash chips Sure, but I don't think soldering skills is exactly what I'd have in mind when I think "upgradeable".
  - GeekyBear 2y ago
    As noted above, you can simply replace that module with a higher capacity module with just a screwdriver, as iFixIt did. However, there is a real opportunity for those who do have soldering skills to make a quick buck here. You could pretty easily buy the cheap base model M4 and resell it as a custom upgrade build, as long as you were clear that the SSD was no longer stock.

IshKebab 2y ago

"Upgradable" if you are willing to desolder and replace the BGA chips. You can't just swap the module out.

favorited 2y ago
The storage is not soldered to the M4 mini SOC.
- IshKebab 2y ago
  No, it is soldered to the storage module. You have to desolder the flash chips from that module and replace them. You can't just order a bigger storage module from Apple (or anyone else) and plug it in.
  - josephg 2y ago
    I don’t think anything is stopping you buying a second hand / 3rd party module online. It just needs to be physically compatible with your particular generation of hardware.
    - Izikiel43 2y ago
      Well, someone has to build the 3rd party module
    - staticfish 2y ago
      I don't think this is true. If you watch the videos, dosdude1 specifically says he had to order blank NANDs for this process. Then you DFU restore the system from another mac. I have no proof, but I assume part of this DFU restore process is the new NAND chips being hardware paired in some way. Again I have no proof, but there must be reasons he claims they have to be blank NANDs
      - GeekyBear 2y ago
        > there must be reasons he claims they have to be blank NANDs If you are building new SSDs, it makes sense to be certain that used NAND chips aren't slipping into your supply chain. They do have a limited number of write cycles that they are good for, after all.

choonway 2y ago

I think the reason to make it replace/removable is to reduce e-waste at EOL. Lots of companies have policies on data storage on decomissioned computers to be physically destroyed, so making it replaceable allows the machines to be repurposed after.

e40 2y ago

Someone actually doing the upgrade: https://youtu.be/cJPXLE9uPr8?si=IyTLwG9SC4r4dJXP https://youtu.be/cJPXLE9uPr8?si=IyTLwG9SC4r4dJXP

deleted 2y ago
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