4 ms·

Can we get some of these cheap cars here? I don't want to keep funding Ford and GM shareholder greed.

by nine_zeros 2y ago

djmips 2y ago
No you have to buy a puffed up SUV or truck!
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  All joking aside, it is a factor to consider when you're looking at these much smaller cars from foreign markets how they're going to fare when you get t-boned by a lifted F-350. This is not an argument against this car or others like it, mind you, this is if anything an argument for them and against bloated American status symbols and the less skilled and less empathetic drivers who find them so appealing.
  - aiforecastthway 2y ago
    > t-boned by a lifted F-350. I'm not sure how a Ranger would fair getting t-boned by a lifted F-350... I think the bigger problem for these smaller cars are the (much more numerous) mid-sized SUVs.
JKCalhoun 2y ago
Yeah, starting to think we're getting screwed in the U.S. I kind of think if more people in the U.S. knew what the rest of the world were paying for cars they might take up arms.
- OccamsMirror 2y ago
  Same here in Australia. We also have a 5% tariff, and an additional 33% on so called "luxury cars", even though we don't have a car industry anymore.
  - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
    We still have the tariff? Fucks sake shitty Australian governments on both sides. How long have Holden and Ford been gone now? Seven years!
    - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
      Apparently the import tariffs on cars is gone, primarily due to free trade agreements. However, the luxury car tax still applies to cars over the following values (retail cost inclusive of GST, customs, delivery): - $91,387 for fuel-efficient vehicles - $80,567 for others And the 33% tax applies to the value of the car above the threshold. I have much less of a problem with that arrangement.
      - OccamsMirror 2y ago
        Do you have a source for the 5% tariff being removed? A quick Google search didn't yield any definitive results for me.
        BLKNSLVR 2y ago
        The tariff doesn't seem to be removed, but it doesn't apply to suppliers in countries covered by free trade agreements. I was careless in my reading and writing. Source: https://www.goauto.com.au/news/general-news/regulation/77-per-cent-of-new-cars-already-have-zero-tariff/2018-01-05/68578.html https://www.goauto.com.au/news/general-news/regulation/77-pe...
  - grecy 2y ago
    The luxury car tax is such a scam. There’s no luxury boat tax. No luxury plane tax, no luxury watch or diamond or pool or McMansion tax.
    - Cumpiler69 2y ago
      >The luxury car tax is such a scam. It's just another tax on the working class. ~40% income tax, then on what's left you pay another ~20% VAT, then some luxury tax on top of that because how dare you afford more than bread and water you filthy feudal lord? Billionaires who buy actual luxuries have a plethora of avenues of avoiding any kind of luxury taxes. Why do you think Monaco exists? Or Dubai?
- mdasen 2y ago
  The thing is that cheap cars don't sell well in the US. Are you buying a Nissan Versa for $18k? Are you willing to drive a manual transmission to save $1,500? Car companies have tried selling cheaper cars in the US. The Suzuki Dzire is 152" long. A Nissan Versa is 177" long - more than 2 feet longer. Toyota pulled the Yaris from the US market because of poor sales (despite being a well regarded car as a rebadged Mazda2; 171" long). The Suzuki Dzire is the same length as the smallest Mini Cooper - but without the sports-car appeal. It'll do 0-60 in 12 seconds (14 seconds if you want an automatic). Americans want cars that can do 0-60 in half that time. Companies have attempted to bring cheaper and smaller vehicles to the US, but Americans won't buy them. Even today, Americans will spend an extra $5,000-10,000 to get an SUV. Americans complain non-stop about gas prices, but proceed to buy vehicles that guzzle gas. The average new car price in the US is over $47,000 - way above what you'd pay for a loaded Toyota Camry. Americans don't want a Suzuki Dzire. They want a pickup truck with all the luxury trimmings. Part of the cost of US cars is regulatory compliance. As the article notes, this was tested by Global NCAP which tests cars from markets with weak or non-existent regulations. Part of it is going to be the cost of labor or import tariffs. Mexico has lower wages than the US, but part of USMCA/NAFTA trade agreement means that their auto industry wages are a lot closer to US/Canada wages. You aren't going to be able to build them in India and import them to the US without facing tariffs. Part of it is that Americans simply don't want a cheap car. I totally get where you're coming from because I don't want to spend a lot on a car. I also want an iPhone mini. People continually say that a small phone would be a big hit. Companies have tried and failed. There are so many cheaper options for cars in the US and Americans are spending nearly fifty grand instead. And when you start talking about bringing a Suzuki Dzire up to US regulations, import taxes, distribution costs (and the American wages you need to pay to everyone importing, transporting, and selling your cars here), equipment you want, etc. does that $8,000 vehicle look more like $14,000? And then at that price, do you want something that's 80hp and 0-60 in 14 seconds or would you rather spend up for a Toyota Corolla and get a much larger car with a lot more power and an amazing track record? Toyota sold the Yaris for $16,000, but people didn't want it. We're talking about a car that Car and Driver gave 9.5/10. It was a really good car at a great price and Americans wouldn't buy it. It's easy to think "I'd love an $8,000 car" when you aren't/can't seriously consider buying it. But maybe we're similar and we'd like more affordable cars and are willing to go with something basic. But most Americans wouldn't be up in arms for this $8,000 car. They're spending double what many great cars cost and they'd rather moan about the cost of gas than drive something efficient. Hell, hybrids today like the Civic or Prius get better 0-60 times than the sports sedans from my youth - but that doesn't matter. Americans will moan about paying for stuff, but the second that you suggest they buy something efficient or affordable or make any compromise and they'll find any reason not to.
- darth_avocado 2y ago
  It’s more expensive because you pay US wages to make the car. PPP is the real reason why it’s cheaper to build in a country where a $1000/month is a really good salary that will afford you a comfortable lifestyle on 1 income.
  - alephnerd 2y ago
    Purchasing Power is not enough to tip the scales. The reason costs are low is because of scale and automation. Suzuki exports it's India manufactured cars and components across Asia and Africa which helps drive costs down drastically, and leadership make a strategic decision to pivot towards automation. Maruti Suzuki has been heavily automated for almost 2 decades now, especially after the union killed a plant manager and burnt down the Manesar factory in 2012 [2] Already in 2017 Maruti Suzuki had 2000 installed units for 10000 employees [0], but the US still had around 1300 installed units for 10000 employees in 2021 [1]. Also, salaries in Maruti Suzuki Manesar and Gurgaon (the flagship factories in suburbs of Delhi) are similar to Dacia's in Romania and the CoL in Delhi NCR is comparable to Eastern Europe in general, yet similar cars in Europe will cost around $10-15k. [0] - https://www.livemint.com/Companies/0qexlea1C0MelXiAXcveOJ/Robots-sweep-across-Maruti-Suzukis-shop-floor.html https://www.livemint.com/Companies/0qexlea1C0MelXiAXcveOJ/Ro... [1] - https://ifr.org/ifr-press-releases/news/us-robot-density-in-car-industry-ranks-7th-worldwide https://ifr.org/ifr-press-releases/news/us-robot-density-in-... [2] - https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/verdict-today-for-maruti-workers-in-deadly-haryana-riot-10-facts-1668232 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/verdict-today-for-maruti-wor...
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  If there is one thing Americans show they are amazing at, it's insisting that the simple improvements that Europe has, like affordable small cars, or socialized (or better public/private like germany has), or trains, or consumer protections, Are magically impossible here.
ars 2y ago
Companies sell what people buy. There's no car company conspiracy to keep small cars away from you.
- nothercastle 2y ago
  Actually there is it’s called CAFE and tariffs
  - ponector 2y ago
    There are many small cars following CAFE rules(like 50+mpg), people just don't want to buy them.
    - nothercastle 2y ago
      Cafe increases costs and incentivizes large footprint vehicles and suvs. Small cars are not economical with those rules. Also there are a lot of import tariffs on a car not assembled in a NAFTA zone.
- aiforecastthway 2y ago
  Car dealership owners are a staple of state legislatures for a reason.
pj_mukh 2y ago
I'd love a small car and do have a couple of options, but in an accident, I will lose so hard (see: die quickly), the risk just doesn't seem worth it. Until some intervention starts reducing car sizes en masse, this will just be true. I'm loathed to even get a Prius with this being true.
WoodenChair 2y ago
> I don't want to keep funding Ford and GM shareholder greed. As a long suffering Ford stockholder, I'd like to understand what you mean by "shareholder greed." Go look at a 30 year chart of their stock price. It's barely changed. They do have a nice dividend. The company's PE ratio is appropriate for a very very mature industrial stock. Its market cap is $43 billion. That's about 20% of Toyota and 4% of Tesla. Who are these greedy shareholders and why are they managing to extract so little value out of the company despite being so greedy?
- pbmonster 2y ago
  > They do have a nice dividend. You don't say. And maybe it would look a little less greedy if that dividend were slightly smaller, but you guys make them sell the Ford Fiesta in the US instead? Hell, maybe the dividend wouldn't even be smaller! But nobody knows, since Ford doesn't sell cars for poor people anymore, not even the cars it makes in large numbers anyway.
  - WoodenChair 2y ago
    > You don't say. And maybe it would look a little less greedy if that dividend were slightly smaller, but you guys make them sell the Ford Fiesta in the US instead? What do you mean "you guys make them." Individual tiny shareholders have 0 ability to change what a company sells. Also, why pick on Ford? It is one of the smallest of the "large" car manufacturers. As I mentioned in my original comment it's a fraction of the size of Toyota and Tesla in market cap. It has deliberately chosen a niche—trucks and SUVs—to survive. In my opinion, it does not have the brand, marketing, or research and development muscle to compete with Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, or Honda in the small sedan market and rightly exited it. Few in the USA thought Ford was making good small sedans in the late 2010s compared to their rivals, hence why consumers stopped choosing them and Ford stopped selling them. > But nobody knows, since Ford doesn't sell cars for poor people anymore, not even the cars it makes in large numbers anyway. As is stated in this thread, across all manufacturers, the cheapest car sold today in the US is about $20K (Nissan Versa). Ford sells the Maverick pickup for $24K and the Escape SUV for $30K. It chooses not to compete at the very lowest tier of the US market and no longer manufactures any small cars like the Fiesta in the US. Is it Ford's responsibility to compete at every segment of the market? Or is it okay that they are specializing in trucks and SUVs where they have some competitive advantage and letting other manufacturers like Nissan have the small car market?
maximus-decimus 2y ago
I don't know why you aim at them in particular. The only subcompacts left in NA I believe are the Nissan versa and the Mitsubishi mirage, and the Mirage gets killed next year. They all killed their small cars. All of them. No more Honda Fit, no more Mazda 2 / Yaris, Kia Rios, Chevy Spark, Chevy Sonic, Nissan Micra, Mitsu Mirage. In Canada at least, the Fiat 500 only exists as an overpriced BEV model with such a small range it's unusable except as a pure city car.

Can we get some of these cheap cars here? I don't want to keep funding Ford and GM shareholder greed.

djmips 2y ago

No you have to buy a puffed up SUV or truck!

ToucanLoucan 2y ago
All joking aside, it is a factor to consider when you're looking at these much smaller cars from foreign markets how they're going to fare when you get t-boned by a lifted F-350. This is not an argument against this car or others like it, mind you, this is if anything an argument for them and against bloated American status symbols and the less skilled and less empathetic drivers who find them so appealing.
- aiforecastthway 2y ago
  > t-boned by a lifted F-350. I'm not sure how a Ranger would fair getting t-boned by a lifted F-350... I think the bigger problem for these smaller cars are the (much more numerous) mid-sized SUVs.

JKCalhoun 2y ago

Yeah, starting to think we're getting screwed in the U.S. I kind of think if more people in the U.S. knew what the rest of the world were paying for cars they might take up arms.

OccamsMirror 2y ago
Same here in Australia. We also have a 5% tariff, and an additional 33% on so called "luxury cars", even though we don't have a car industry anymore.
- BLKNSLVR 2y ago
  We still have the tariff? Fucks sake shitty Australian governments on both sides. How long have Holden and Ford been gone now? Seven years!
  - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
    Apparently the import tariffs on cars is gone, primarily due to free trade agreements. However, the luxury car tax still applies to cars over the following values (retail cost inclusive of GST, customs, delivery): - $91,387 for fuel-efficient vehicles - $80,567 for others And the 33% tax applies to the value of the car above the threshold. I have much less of a problem with that arrangement.
    - OccamsMirror 2y ago
      Do you have a source for the 5% tariff being removed? A quick Google search didn't yield any definitive results for me.
      - BLKNSLVR 2y ago
        The tariff doesn't seem to be removed, but it doesn't apply to suppliers in countries covered by free trade agreements. I was careless in my reading and writing. Source: https://www.goauto.com.au/news/general-news/regulation/77-per-cent-of-new-cars-already-have-zero-tariff/2018-01-05/68578.html https://www.goauto.com.au/news/general-news/regulation/77-pe...
- grecy 2y ago
  The luxury car tax is such a scam. There’s no luxury boat tax. No luxury plane tax, no luxury watch or diamond or pool or McMansion tax.
  - Cumpiler69 2y ago
    >The luxury car tax is such a scam. It's just another tax on the working class. ~40% income tax, then on what's left you pay another ~20% VAT, then some luxury tax on top of that because how dare you afford more than bread and water you filthy feudal lord? Billionaires who buy actual luxuries have a plethora of avenues of avoiding any kind of luxury taxes. Why do you think Monaco exists? Or Dubai?
mdasen 2y ago
The thing is that cheap cars don't sell well in the US. Are you buying a Nissan Versa for $18k? Are you willing to drive a manual transmission to save $1,500? Car companies have tried selling cheaper cars in the US. The Suzuki Dzire is 152" long. A Nissan Versa is 177" long - more than 2 feet longer. Toyota pulled the Yaris from the US market because of poor sales (despite being a well regarded car as a rebadged Mazda2; 171" long). The Suzuki Dzire is the same length as the smallest Mini Cooper - but without the sports-car appeal. It'll do 0-60 in 12 seconds (14 seconds if you want an automatic). Americans want cars that can do 0-60 in half that time. Companies have attempted to bring cheaper and smaller vehicles to the US, but Americans won't buy them. Even today, Americans will spend an extra $5,000-10,000 to get an SUV. Americans complain non-stop about gas prices, but proceed to buy vehicles that guzzle gas. The average new car price in the US is over $47,000 - way above what you'd pay for a loaded Toyota Camry. Americans don't want a Suzuki Dzire. They want a pickup truck with all the luxury trimmings. Part of the cost of US cars is regulatory compliance. As the article notes, this was tested by Global NCAP which tests cars from markets with weak or non-existent regulations. Part of it is going to be the cost of labor or import tariffs. Mexico has lower wages than the US, but part of USMCA/NAFTA trade agreement means that their auto industry wages are a lot closer to US/Canada wages. You aren't going to be able to build them in India and import them to the US without facing tariffs. Part of it is that Americans simply don't want a cheap car. I totally get where you're coming from because I don't want to spend a lot on a car. I also want an iPhone mini. People continually say that a small phone would be a big hit. Companies have tried and failed. There are so many cheaper options for cars in the US and Americans are spending nearly fifty grand instead. And when you start talking about bringing a Suzuki Dzire up to US regulations, import taxes, distribution costs (and the American wages you need to pay to everyone importing, transporting, and selling your cars here), equipment you want, etc. does that $8,000 vehicle look more like $14,000? And then at that price, do you want something that's 80hp and 0-60 in 14 seconds or would you rather spend up for a Toyota Corolla and get a much larger car with a lot more power and an amazing track record? Toyota sold the Yaris for $16,000, but people didn't want it. We're talking about a car that Car and Driver gave 9.5/10. It was a really good car at a great price and Americans wouldn't buy it. It's easy to think "I'd love an $8,000 car" when you aren't/can't seriously consider buying it. But maybe we're similar and we'd like more affordable cars and are willing to go with something basic. But most Americans wouldn't be up in arms for this $8,000 car. They're spending double what many great cars cost and they'd rather moan about the cost of gas than drive something efficient. Hell, hybrids today like the Civic or Prius get better 0-60 times than the sports sedans from my youth - but that doesn't matter. Americans will moan about paying for stuff, but the second that you suggest they buy something efficient or affordable or make any compromise and they'll find any reason not to.
darth_avocado 2y ago
It’s more expensive because you pay US wages to make the car. PPP is the real reason why it’s cheaper to build in a country where a $1000/month is a really good salary that will afford you a comfortable lifestyle on 1 income.
- alephnerd 2y ago
  Purchasing Power is not enough to tip the scales. The reason costs are low is because of scale and automation. Suzuki exports it's India manufactured cars and components across Asia and Africa which helps drive costs down drastically, and leadership make a strategic decision to pivot towards automation. Maruti Suzuki has been heavily automated for almost 2 decades now, especially after the union killed a plant manager and burnt down the Manesar factory in 2012 [2] Already in 2017 Maruti Suzuki had 2000 installed units for 10000 employees [0], but the US still had around 1300 installed units for 10000 employees in 2021 [1]. Also, salaries in Maruti Suzuki Manesar and Gurgaon (the flagship factories in suburbs of Delhi) are similar to Dacia's in Romania and the CoL in Delhi NCR is comparable to Eastern Europe in general, yet similar cars in Europe will cost around $10-15k. [0] - https://www.livemint.com/Companies/0qexlea1C0MelXiAXcveOJ/Robots-sweep-across-Maruti-Suzukis-shop-floor.html https://www.livemint.com/Companies/0qexlea1C0MelXiAXcveOJ/Ro... [1] - https://ifr.org/ifr-press-releases/news/us-robot-density-in-car-industry-ranks-7th-worldwide https://ifr.org/ifr-press-releases/news/us-robot-density-in-... [2] - https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/verdict-today-for-maruti-workers-in-deadly-haryana-riot-10-facts-1668232 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/verdict-today-for-maruti-wor...
mrguyorama 2y ago
If there is one thing Americans show they are amazing at, it's insisting that the simple improvements that Europe has, like affordable small cars, or socialized (or better public/private like germany has), or trains, or consumer protections, Are magically impossible here.

ars 2y ago

Companies sell what people buy. There's no car company conspiracy to keep small cars away from you.

nothercastle 2y ago
Actually there is it’s called CAFE and tariffs
- ponector 2y ago
  There are many small cars following CAFE rules(like 50+mpg), people just don't want to buy them.
  - nothercastle 2y ago
    Cafe increases costs and incentivizes large footprint vehicles and suvs. Small cars are not economical with those rules. Also there are a lot of import tariffs on a car not assembled in a NAFTA zone.
aiforecastthway 2y ago
Car dealership owners are a staple of state legislatures for a reason.

pj_mukh 2y ago

I'd love a small car and do have a couple of options, but in an accident, I will lose so hard (see: die quickly), the risk just doesn't seem worth it. Until some intervention starts reducing car sizes en masse, this will just be true. I'm loathed to even get a Prius with this being true.

WoodenChair 2y ago

> I don't want to keep funding Ford and GM shareholder greed. As a long suffering Ford stockholder, I'd like to understand what you mean by "shareholder greed." Go look at a 30 year chart of their stock price. It's barely changed. They do have a nice dividend. The company's PE ratio is appropriate for a very very mature industrial stock. Its market cap is $43 billion. That's about 20% of Toyota and 4% of Tesla. Who are these greedy shareholders and why are they managing to extract so little value out of the company despite being so greedy?

pbmonster 2y ago
> They do have a nice dividend. You don't say. And maybe it would look a little less greedy if that dividend were slightly smaller, but you guys make them sell the Ford Fiesta in the US instead? Hell, maybe the dividend wouldn't even be smaller! But nobody knows, since Ford doesn't sell cars for poor people anymore, not even the cars it makes in large numbers anyway.
- WoodenChair 2y ago
  > You don't say. And maybe it would look a little less greedy if that dividend were slightly smaller, but you guys make them sell the Ford Fiesta in the US instead? What do you mean "you guys make them." Individual tiny shareholders have 0 ability to change what a company sells. Also, why pick on Ford? It is one of the smallest of the "large" car manufacturers. As I mentioned in my original comment it's a fraction of the size of Toyota and Tesla in market cap. It has deliberately chosen a niche—trucks and SUVs—to survive. In my opinion, it does not have the brand, marketing, or research and development muscle to compete with Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai, or Honda in the small sedan market and rightly exited it. Few in the USA thought Ford was making good small sedans in the late 2010s compared to their rivals, hence why consumers stopped choosing them and Ford stopped selling them. > But nobody knows, since Ford doesn't sell cars for poor people anymore, not even the cars it makes in large numbers anyway. As is stated in this thread, across all manufacturers, the cheapest car sold today in the US is about $20K (Nissan Versa). Ford sells the Maverick pickup for $24K and the Escape SUV for $30K. It chooses not to compete at the very lowest tier of the US market and no longer manufactures any small cars like the Fiesta in the US. Is it Ford's responsibility to compete at every segment of the market? Or is it okay that they are specializing in trucks and SUVs where they have some competitive advantage and letting other manufacturers like Nissan have the small car market?

maximus-decimus 2y ago

I don't know why you aim at them in particular. The only subcompacts left in NA I believe are the Nissan versa and the Mitsubishi mirage, and the Mirage gets killed next year. They all killed their small cars. All of them. No more Honda Fit, no more Mazda 2 / Yaris, Kia Rios, Chevy Spark, Chevy Sonic, Nissan Micra, Mitsu Mirage. In Canada at least, the Fiat 500 only exists as an overpriced BEV model with such a small range it's unusable except as a pure city car.