6 ms·

> If you look at the geography, if you look at the political climate, just at the fundamentals it's not clear why Vienna is a large city. Could you elaborate o

> If you look at the geography, if you look at the political climate, just at the fundamentals it's not clear why Vienna is a large city. Could you elaborate on this a bit please? Vienna has culturally always been considered the front door to eastern Europe (from a central European POV). Vienna is one of the best cities in central Europe to go for an academic degree: Renting is capped and still affordable (and wants to be kept that way btw, see the ban of AirBnB). There are almost no education fees, even non-austrians can apply for benefits from the government. With 200k students it's the largest german-speaking university city on par with Berlin[0]. The employment law is exemplary good. For me personally it isn't surprsing that almost 1/4th of whole Austria lives in Vienna. [0]: https://www.wien.gv.at/statistik/pdf/viennainfigures-2023.pdf https://www.wien.gv.at/statistik/pdf/viennainfigures-2023.pd...

Rinzler89 2y ago
>The employment law is exemplary good. Taht's not true at all. Employers can lay off workers for no reason at all at any time without paying any severance (unless you have a unio that can negotiate a better deal). Just hand them the notice and you're done.
- whilenot-dev 2y ago
  The notice period is 6 weeks at minimum by law and often negotiated to be 3 months on unlimited contracts - limited contacts can't be terminated unilateral. And, depending on social situation, you can still sue immediately through the Arbeiterkammer[0] without any costs. [0]: https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/arbeitundrecht/beendigung/Arbeitgeber-Kuendigung.html https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/arbeitundrecht/beendi...
  - jahnu 2y ago
    Right there are some restrictions but people seem to have the weird idea that you can't get fired without cause or redundancy. If the employer does it correctly they can essentially get rid of anyone, those restrictions notwithstanding.
    - whilenot-dev 2y ago
      You can get fired immediately without cause, but that's against the law, and the law is pretty clear on lawful causes: § 27. Als ein wichtiger Grund, der den Dienstgeber zur vorzeitigen Entlassung berechtigt, ist insbesondere anzusehen: 1. Wenn der Angestellte im Dienste untreu ist, sich in seiner Tätigkeit ohne Wissen oder Willen des Dienstgebers von dritten Personen unberechtigte Vorteile zuwenden läßt, insbesondere entgegen der Bestimmung des § 13 eine Provision oder eine sonstige Belohnung annimmt, oder wenn er sich einer Handlung schuldig macht, die ihn des Vertrauens des Dienstgebers unwürdig erscheinen läßt; 2. wenn der Angestellte unfähig ist, die versprochenen oder die den Umständen nach angemessenen Dienste (§ 6) zu leisten; 3. wenn einer der im § 1 bezeichneten Angestellten ohne Einwilligung des Dienstgebers ein selbständiges kaufmännisches Unternehmen betreibt oder im Geschäftszweige des Dienstgebers für eigene oder fremde Rechnung Handelsgeschäfte macht oder wenn ein Angestellter den in § 7, Absatz 4, bezeichneten Verboten zuwiderhandelt; 4. wenn der Angestellte ohne einen rechtmäßigen Hinderungsgrund während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit die Dienstleistung unterläßt oder sich beharrlich weigert, seine Dienste zu leisten oder sich den durch den Gegenstand der Dienstleistung gerechtfertigten Anordnungen des Dienstgebers zu fügen, oder wenn er andere Bedienstete zum Ungehorsam gegen den Dienstgeber zu verleiten sucht; 5. wenn der Angestellte durch eine längere Freiheitsstrafe oder durch Abwesenheit während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit, ausgenommen wegen Krankheit oder Unglücksfalls, an der Verrichtung seiner Dienste gehindert ist; 6. wenn der Angestellte sich Tätlichkeiten, Verletzungen der Sittlichkeit oder erhebliche Ehrverletzungen gegen den Dienstgeber, dessen Stellvertreter, deren Angehörige oder gegen Mitbedienstete zuschulden kommen läßt. The employee can also "fire their employer", see § 26[0] for lawful causes. The proof of guilt is up to the one who fires in the end. I know of one person who got fired unlawful, and their ex-employer is now EUR 80k+ poorer. [0]: https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10008069 https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundes...
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        I think you're mixing up firing and dismissing. You need a reason to fire someone but firing means no notice period and no unemployment benefits, but you don't need a reason to dismiss someone with notice, which is relatively unique nerf in terms of EU workers rights by comparison.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >The notice period is 6 weeks at minimum by law and often negotiated to be 3 months The issue is being able to let go of workers for no reason, not the notice period itself, which BTW, every EU country has, Austria is nothing special here, quite the opposite. Do you feel this imbalance of power that you can be let go at any time for any reason is a fair to the workers in a so called socialist country? Wouldn't be such a big issue if unemployment wouldn't be a pitiful 60% of your salary for ~3 months (yes it can be longer but you're then at the mercy of the system handler if they agree with the job search you're doing, otherwise they can also cut you off if you don't want to take hard jobs like warehouse work) . >you can still sue immediately through the Arbeiterkammer AK will only help you sue only in case of unfair dismissal which rarely happens because employers don't need to provide a reason for terminating you as long as they give you the 6-week-3-month notice. So long hours, burnout and hire-and-fire mentality is rampant among Austrian companies, but rarely talked about because it contradicts the "most livable country" narrative paid for by Austria to the Economist who runs that yearly campaign-ad.
    - whilenot-dev 2y ago
      > The issue is being able to let go of workers for no reason, not the notice period itself, which BTW, every EU country has, Austria is nothing special here, quite the opposite. Do you feel this imbalance of power that you can be let go at any time for any reason is a fair to the workers in a so called socialist country? I don't think of Austria as a socialist country and I think it's fair to be able to let people go without reason, but with a notice period (and unemployment benefits and social healthcare). In practice, it won't be much different than with the requirement of a reason anyway: If you'll want to fight it, then you'll need to go through legal ways and contest the employers decision anyway. In Austria there's a 2-week time limit to bring in a lawsuit on unlawful termination of an employment contract if you still want to work there.
    - rettetdemdativ 2y ago
      Where did you get the idea that Austria is a socialist country? It used to be to a certain degree, but those times are long gone, except for strong unionization, the social safety net and worker protections. Austria is a deeply conservative country and has been for much of its history. Vienna is a bit of an exception, as it has actually been ruled by social democrats for ~100 years (with a violent break during the 30s and 40s).
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  I would argue that's what makes it good employment law.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    How so? Wages are still lower than in Germany, Belgium, Sweden or Netherlands where it's difficult to dismiss someone without proper cause and a long process. Where are the benefits for Austrian workers for this lack of protection against firing versus countries that have protections? And where is this HN simping for ruthless capitalist that lay you off you the moment you get sick coming from? What am I not seeing here?
    - whilenot-dev 2y ago
      > And where is this HN simping for ruthless capitalist that lay you off you the moment you get sick coming from? Sounds like you made some experiences with the wrong people. The process is faster than in other european countries, true, but we're still far away from a short process... unemployment benefits, social healthcare, sick leave, holidays etc. A shorter process can open up good opportunities, but demands some security to enjoy the risks. I think we're mostly balancing this act and it's a good thing when it makes Austria more attractive to employers. Competition against Germany, Belgium, Sweden, or the Netherlands is in my own interest. Especially in the case of software engineering it can be beneficial to join unstable employments and be ready to change frequently. I'm mostly seeing it as grateful (depending on market), as you can only see so many system designs fail in your lifetime. :D
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        >Sounds like you made some experiences with the wrong people. This might shock you, but lot of Austrian employers behave like this: Hire and fire. Got sick? So long. This shouldn't be acceptable in an EU country. AK is also useless here because the laws are toothless. >unemployment benefits, social healthcare, sick leave, holidays etc Those exist in every other EU company where you can't lay off people just because you don't like their face anymore. >Competition against Germany, Belgium, Sweden, or the Netherlands is in my own interest. Yet those countries score better at innovation, entrepreneurship while having better worker rights and higher wages. How do you explain that? I'm not sure working yourself to death in a race to the bottom on lowering workers rights is a good strategy.
- FredPret 2y ago
  The easier it is to fire or retrench someone, the easier it is to hire them. And if it's easy for me to hire... then it's easier for the next entrepreneur to hire... paradoxically driving wages up and forcing businesses to keep hiring high so as to keep their competitive edge. The only people suffering under such a system are freeloaders - who get hired and then proceed to lean on labour laws to stick around for a long time after their welcome has worn out.
the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
> Could you elaborate on this a bit please? Austria has no sea access, no navy, few natural resources. Vienna is strategically not in a particularly amazing position compared to most other cities around. It's not clear to me what the fundamental reasons are why Vienna should be a large city other than that it historically was one, declined a bit and somehow regrew. I think it's great here, but I also cannot really understand why.
- empath75 2y ago
  > Austria has no sea access, no navy, few natural resources. Austria used to have all of those things. Vienna itself is not particularly different from any other imperial capital in terms of its location.
- whilenot-dev 2y ago
  Austria was mostly about mathematics, engineering and human sciences. There was an Austro-Hungarian Navy, and Josef Ressel gave the Royal Navy the world's most powerful navy with his invention of the propeller. :D
  - inglor_cz 2y ago
    Maths was stronger in Germany, especially in Heidelberg. Riemann, Hilbert et al. were all Germans. There was also a fairly strong Polish school of maths and formal logic, but it can only be called Austrian with some stretching of the word; while Galicia was part of the empire, it was about as far (ethnically, culturally and physically) from Vienna as possible.
- kingkawn 2y ago
  Even a cursory look at its history would resolve these questions
- paulgerhardt 2y ago
  Coffee. While Vienna is located at the crossroads between the planes and the Alps along the Danube making it modestly fortifiable from previous Ottoman incursions in 1529 and essential hub for quarterly markets. As the easternmost capital not to fall to the Ottomans, merchants that went to the Viennese markets would have valuable first arbitrage opportunities on eastern spices, textiles, medicines, gems, and ceramics coming from the east (the taxes on which solidified the Hapsburg position). However, it wasn’t until the siege of 1683 [1] that resulted in the Ottomans crushing defeat and withdrawal much like a port city by a sea only to see the sea recede. In that withdrawal the Ottomans left behind enough coffee in their abandoned provisions that the Viennese were able to open Europe’s first coffee house and cement Vienna as Europes premier nexus for academia :-) [1] https://youtu.be/ukyquQkQAYo https://youtu.be/ukyquQkQAYo
wintermutestwin 2y ago
>see the ban of AirBnB Huh? I was there this summer with my daughter and there were plenty of Airbnbs. They were dramatically more affordable (especially given my need for two separate rooms). I get the AirBnB hate from local renters, but as a frequent traveler, hotels suck so bad that they deserve disruption.
- cg5280 2y ago
  I actually feel the opposite, I quite like the convenience that hotels offer (such as housekeeping, clean sheets) and I've found that unless you are doing longterm stays (1 month+) the prices between hotels and Airbnbs are usually comparable.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    I've done very little renting from AirBnBs and they can be cheaper and there are certainly certain types of properties (like whole house rentals) that aren't really available from traditional hotels vs. AirBnB/VRBO/etc. That said, especially for visiting a city, I'll pretty much go with traditional hotels, often chains, for the predictability. I've very rarely had a truly bad experience and it's usually been something like a badly situated luck-of-the-draw room and even that isn't usually a big deal in a city where I'm not spending a lot of time in a room. I can reliably checkin whenever, there's staff on-call, I don't usually care if I have a kitchen other than a small fridge (which many hotels have these days), and so forth. I've stayed in many B&Bs--some of which are also listed these days on AirBnB. Most have been good, some less so. Usually less of a good option in urban centers.
- isaacremuant 2y ago
  Airbnb is just a scapegoat for the people who want quick solutions for the damage governments have done for ages. Competition is good and empowering people to make money off their assets (just like Uber) even better. Regulate it and hotels to protect consumers but don't pretend Airbnb's are the cause for housing being unaffordable to rent or buy. Specially not when you're taxing renters like mad and offering little in return. It's always funny reading takes in HN about places where you have first hand knowledge of, whether it be a geographic location or a company.
rettetdemdativ 2y ago
Renting is not capped, unless I'm reading your comment wrong and you mean that the city's government influences it. Vienna does not have an explicit cap. Newer flats and houses are index-bound and rents are raised depending on a certain inflation threshold. Older buildings are usually cheaper and there are strict rules on how much rent can be raised. What Vienna does to make renting an apartment affordable is build social housing. Lots of it. 500.000 people in Vienna live in social housing and the Gemeindebauten are actually nice to live in, priority is given to young Viennese still living with their parents, and you can stay in your apartment even if your income increases. The city can therefore bring down rents in the market as not only the poorest can live in these apartments, but they are a valid choice for many. There also isn't a ban on Airbnb. As someone else already commented, you can still stay at Airbnbs in Vienna. You cannot rent out apartments in social housing as Airbnbs anymore and there are areas in the city where you would have to get a special permit and other inhabitants of the building would have to agree.
- spacechild1 2y ago
  Rent in old buildings (Altbau) is capped. The problem is that many landlords don't care and there are no penalties. You can charge back the extra rent but then your landlord will probably not extend your contract...
  - whilenot-dev 2y ago
    That's why: 1. make an unlimited contract 2. sue when you'll leave anyway The statute of limitations is 30 years.
    - spacechild1 2y ago
      > 1. make an unlimited contract That's a good one :-D > The statute of limitations is 30 years. It's actually 10 years. I thought it was less... > 2. sue when you'll leave anyway So that's actually a good strategy! Just note that there are certain deadlines, see https://wien.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/Wohnen/altbaumietencheck/FAQ_zum_Altbau-Mietencheck.html https://wien.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/Wohnen/altbaumietenc....

Rinzler89 2y ago

>The employment law is exemplary good. Taht's not true at all. Employers can lay off workers for no reason at all at any time without paying any severance (unless you have a unio that can negotiate a better deal). Just hand them the notice and you're done.

whilenot-dev 2y ago
The notice period is 6 weeks at minimum by law and often negotiated to be 3 months on unlimited contracts - limited contacts can't be terminated unilateral. And, depending on social situation, you can still sue immediately through the Arbeiterkammer[0] without any costs. [0]: https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/arbeitundrecht/beendigung/Arbeitgeber-Kuendigung.html https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/arbeitundrecht/beendi...
- jahnu 2y ago
  Right there are some restrictions but people seem to have the weird idea that you can't get fired without cause or redundancy. If the employer does it correctly they can essentially get rid of anyone, those restrictions notwithstanding.
  - whilenot-dev 2y ago
    You can get fired immediately without cause, but that's against the law, and the law is pretty clear on lawful causes: § 27. Als ein wichtiger Grund, der den Dienstgeber zur vorzeitigen Entlassung berechtigt, ist insbesondere anzusehen: 1. Wenn der Angestellte im Dienste untreu ist, sich in seiner Tätigkeit ohne Wissen oder Willen des Dienstgebers von dritten Personen unberechtigte Vorteile zuwenden läßt, insbesondere entgegen der Bestimmung des § 13 eine Provision oder eine sonstige Belohnung annimmt, oder wenn er sich einer Handlung schuldig macht, die ihn des Vertrauens des Dienstgebers unwürdig erscheinen läßt; 2. wenn der Angestellte unfähig ist, die versprochenen oder die den Umständen nach angemessenen Dienste (§ 6) zu leisten; 3. wenn einer der im § 1 bezeichneten Angestellten ohne Einwilligung des Dienstgebers ein selbständiges kaufmännisches Unternehmen betreibt oder im Geschäftszweige des Dienstgebers für eigene oder fremde Rechnung Handelsgeschäfte macht oder wenn ein Angestellter den in § 7, Absatz 4, bezeichneten Verboten zuwiderhandelt; 4. wenn der Angestellte ohne einen rechtmäßigen Hinderungsgrund während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit die Dienstleistung unterläßt oder sich beharrlich weigert, seine Dienste zu leisten oder sich den durch den Gegenstand der Dienstleistung gerechtfertigten Anordnungen des Dienstgebers zu fügen, oder wenn er andere Bedienstete zum Ungehorsam gegen den Dienstgeber zu verleiten sucht; 5. wenn der Angestellte durch eine längere Freiheitsstrafe oder durch Abwesenheit während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit, ausgenommen wegen Krankheit oder Unglücksfalls, an der Verrichtung seiner Dienste gehindert ist; 6. wenn der Angestellte sich Tätlichkeiten, Verletzungen der Sittlichkeit oder erhebliche Ehrverletzungen gegen den Dienstgeber, dessen Stellvertreter, deren Angehörige oder gegen Mitbedienstete zuschulden kommen läßt. The employee can also "fire their employer", see § 26[0] for lawful causes. The proof of guilt is up to the one who fires in the end. I know of one person who got fired unlawful, and their ex-employer is now EUR 80k+ poorer. [0]: https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10008069 https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundes...
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      I think you're mixing up firing and dismissing. You need a reason to fire someone but firing means no notice period and no unemployment benefits, but you don't need a reason to dismiss someone with notice, which is relatively unique nerf in terms of EU workers rights by comparison.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >The notice period is 6 weeks at minimum by law and often negotiated to be 3 months The issue is being able to let go of workers for no reason, not the notice period itself, which BTW, every EU country has, Austria is nothing special here, quite the opposite. Do you feel this imbalance of power that you can be let go at any time for any reason is a fair to the workers in a so called socialist country? Wouldn't be such a big issue if unemployment wouldn't be a pitiful 60% of your salary for ~3 months (yes it can be longer but you're then at the mercy of the system handler if they agree with the job search you're doing, otherwise they can also cut you off if you don't want to take hard jobs like warehouse work) . >you can still sue immediately through the Arbeiterkammer AK will only help you sue only in case of unfair dismissal which rarely happens because employers don't need to provide a reason for terminating you as long as they give you the 6-week-3-month notice. So long hours, burnout and hire-and-fire mentality is rampant among Austrian companies, but rarely talked about because it contradicts the "most livable country" narrative paid for by Austria to the Economist who runs that yearly campaign-ad.
  - whilenot-dev 2y ago
    > The issue is being able to let go of workers for no reason, not the notice period itself, which BTW, every EU country has, Austria is nothing special here, quite the opposite. Do you feel this imbalance of power that you can be let go at any time for any reason is a fair to the workers in a so called socialist country? I don't think of Austria as a socialist country and I think it's fair to be able to let people go without reason, but with a notice period (and unemployment benefits and social healthcare). In practice, it won't be much different than with the requirement of a reason anyway: If you'll want to fight it, then you'll need to go through legal ways and contest the employers decision anyway. In Austria there's a 2-week time limit to bring in a lawsuit on unlawful termination of an employment contract if you still want to work there.
  - rettetdemdativ 2y ago
    Where did you get the idea that Austria is a socialist country? It used to be to a certain degree, but those times are long gone, except for strong unionization, the social safety net and worker protections. Austria is a deeply conservative country and has been for much of its history. Vienna is a bit of an exception, as it has actually been ruled by social democrats for ~100 years (with a violent break during the 30s and 40s).
the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
I would argue that's what makes it good employment law.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  How so? Wages are still lower than in Germany, Belgium, Sweden or Netherlands where it's difficult to dismiss someone without proper cause and a long process. Where are the benefits for Austrian workers for this lack of protection against firing versus countries that have protections? And where is this HN simping for ruthless capitalist that lay you off you the moment you get sick coming from? What am I not seeing here?
  - whilenot-dev 2y ago
    > And where is this HN simping for ruthless capitalist that lay you off you the moment you get sick coming from? Sounds like you made some experiences with the wrong people. The process is faster than in other european countries, true, but we're still far away from a short process... unemployment benefits, social healthcare, sick leave, holidays etc. A shorter process can open up good opportunities, but demands some security to enjoy the risks. I think we're mostly balancing this act and it's a good thing when it makes Austria more attractive to employers. Competition against Germany, Belgium, Sweden, or the Netherlands is in my own interest. Especially in the case of software engineering it can be beneficial to join unstable employments and be ready to change frequently. I'm mostly seeing it as grateful (depending on market), as you can only see so many system designs fail in your lifetime. :D
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >Sounds like you made some experiences with the wrong people. This might shock you, but lot of Austrian employers behave like this: Hire and fire. Got sick? So long. This shouldn't be acceptable in an EU country. AK is also useless here because the laws are toothless. >unemployment benefits, social healthcare, sick leave, holidays etc Those exist in every other EU company where you can't lay off people just because you don't like their face anymore. >Competition against Germany, Belgium, Sweden, or the Netherlands is in my own interest. Yet those countries score better at innovation, entrepreneurship while having better worker rights and higher wages. How do you explain that? I'm not sure working yourself to death in a race to the bottom on lowering workers rights is a good strategy.
FredPret 2y ago
The easier it is to fire or retrench someone, the easier it is to hire them. And if it's easy for me to hire... then it's easier for the next entrepreneur to hire... paradoxically driving wages up and forcing businesses to keep hiring high so as to keep their competitive edge. The only people suffering under such a system are freeloaders - who get hired and then proceed to lean on labour laws to stick around for a long time after their welcome has worn out.

the_mitsuhiko 2y ago

> Could you elaborate on this a bit please? Austria has no sea access, no navy, few natural resources. Vienna is strategically not in a particularly amazing position compared to most other cities around. It's not clear to me what the fundamental reasons are why Vienna should be a large city other than that it historically was one, declined a bit and somehow regrew. I think it's great here, but I also cannot really understand why.

empath75 2y ago
> Austria has no sea access, no navy, few natural resources. Austria used to have all of those things. Vienna itself is not particularly different from any other imperial capital in terms of its location.
whilenot-dev 2y ago
Austria was mostly about mathematics, engineering and human sciences. There was an Austro-Hungarian Navy, and Josef Ressel gave the Royal Navy the world's most powerful navy with his invention of the propeller. :D
- inglor_cz 2y ago
  Maths was stronger in Germany, especially in Heidelberg. Riemann, Hilbert et al. were all Germans. There was also a fairly strong Polish school of maths and formal logic, but it can only be called Austrian with some stretching of the word; while Galicia was part of the empire, it was about as far (ethnically, culturally and physically) from Vienna as possible.
kingkawn 2y ago
Even a cursory look at its history would resolve these questions
paulgerhardt 2y ago
Coffee. While Vienna is located at the crossroads between the planes and the Alps along the Danube making it modestly fortifiable from previous Ottoman incursions in 1529 and essential hub for quarterly markets. As the easternmost capital not to fall to the Ottomans, merchants that went to the Viennese markets would have valuable first arbitrage opportunities on eastern spices, textiles, medicines, gems, and ceramics coming from the east (the taxes on which solidified the Hapsburg position). However, it wasn’t until the siege of 1683 [1] that resulted in the Ottomans crushing defeat and withdrawal much like a port city by a sea only to see the sea recede. In that withdrawal the Ottomans left behind enough coffee in their abandoned provisions that the Viennese were able to open Europe’s first coffee house and cement Vienna as Europes premier nexus for academia :-) [1] https://youtu.be/ukyquQkQAYo https://youtu.be/ukyquQkQAYo

wintermutestwin 2y ago

>see the ban of AirBnB Huh? I was there this summer with my daughter and there were plenty of Airbnbs. They were dramatically more affordable (especially given my need for two separate rooms). I get the AirBnB hate from local renters, but as a frequent traveler, hotels suck so bad that they deserve disruption.

cg5280 2y ago
I actually feel the opposite, I quite like the convenience that hotels offer (such as housekeeping, clean sheets) and I've found that unless you are doing longterm stays (1 month+) the prices between hotels and Airbnbs are usually comparable.
- ghaff 2y ago
  I've done very little renting from AirBnBs and they can be cheaper and there are certainly certain types of properties (like whole house rentals) that aren't really available from traditional hotels vs. AirBnB/VRBO/etc. That said, especially for visiting a city, I'll pretty much go with traditional hotels, often chains, for the predictability. I've very rarely had a truly bad experience and it's usually been something like a badly situated luck-of-the-draw room and even that isn't usually a big deal in a city where I'm not spending a lot of time in a room. I can reliably checkin whenever, there's staff on-call, I don't usually care if I have a kitchen other than a small fridge (which many hotels have these days), and so forth. I've stayed in many B&Bs--some of which are also listed these days on AirBnB. Most have been good, some less so. Usually less of a good option in urban centers.
isaacremuant 2y ago
Airbnb is just a scapegoat for the people who want quick solutions for the damage governments have done for ages. Competition is good and empowering people to make money off their assets (just like Uber) even better. Regulate it and hotels to protect consumers but don't pretend Airbnb's are the cause for housing being unaffordable to rent or buy. Specially not when you're taxing renters like mad and offering little in return. It's always funny reading takes in HN about places where you have first hand knowledge of, whether it be a geographic location or a company.

rettetdemdativ 2y ago

Renting is not capped, unless I'm reading your comment wrong and you mean that the city's government influences it. Vienna does not have an explicit cap. Newer flats and houses are index-bound and rents are raised depending on a certain inflation threshold. Older buildings are usually cheaper and there are strict rules on how much rent can be raised. What Vienna does to make renting an apartment affordable is build social housing. Lots of it. 500.000 people in Vienna live in social housing and the Gemeindebauten are actually nice to live in, priority is given to young Viennese still living with their parents, and you can stay in your apartment even if your income increases. The city can therefore bring down rents in the market as not only the poorest can live in these apartments, but they are a valid choice for many. There also isn't a ban on Airbnb. As someone else already commented, you can still stay at Airbnbs in Vienna. You cannot rent out apartments in social housing as Airbnbs anymore and there are areas in the city where you would have to get a special permit and other inhabitants of the building would have to agree.

spacechild1 2y ago
Rent in old buildings (Altbau) is capped. The problem is that many landlords don't care and there are no penalties. You can charge back the extra rent but then your landlord will probably not extend your contract...
- whilenot-dev 2y ago
  That's why: 1. make an unlimited contract 2. sue when you'll leave anyway The statute of limitations is 30 years.
  - spacechild1 2y ago
    > 1. make an unlimited contract That's a good one :-D > The statute of limitations is 30 years. It's actually 10 years. I thought it was less... > 2. sue when you'll leave anyway So that's actually a good strategy! Just note that there are certain deadlines, see https://wien.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/Wohnen/altbaumietencheck/FAQ_zum_Altbau-Mietencheck.html https://wien.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/Wohnen/altbaumietenc....