4 ms·

Vienna to me is a fascinating case of a city that found itself again after having lost its place in history more than once. If you look at the geography, if yo

Vienna to me is a fascinating case of a city that found itself again after having lost its place in history more than once. If you look at the geography, if you look at the political climate, just at the fundamentals it's not clear why Vienna is a large city. There really is not a lot of reason for this city to matter today yet somehow it is a wonderful place to live in, despite all that. The city somehow managed to find an identity on its own that somehow makes it work.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
whilenot-dev 2y ago
> If you look at the geography, if you look at the political climate, just at the fundamentals it's not clear why Vienna is a large city. Could you elaborate on this a bit please? Vienna has culturally always been considered the front door to eastern Europe (from a central European POV). Vienna is one of the best cities in central Europe to go for an academic degree: Renting is capped and still affordable (and wants to be kept that way btw, see the ban of AirBnB). There are almost no education fees, even non-austrians can apply for benefits from the government. With 200k students it's the largest german-speaking university city on par with Berlin[0]. The employment law is exemplary good. For me personally it isn't surprsing that almost 1/4th of whole Austria lives in Vienna. [0]: https://www.wien.gv.at/statistik/pdf/viennainfigures-2023.pdf https://www.wien.gv.at/statistik/pdf/viennainfigures-2023.pd...
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >The employment law is exemplary good. Taht's not true at all. Employers can lay off workers for no reason at all at any time without paying any severance (unless you have a unio that can negotiate a better deal). Just hand them the notice and you're done.
  - whilenot-dev 2y ago
    The notice period is 6 weeks at minimum by law and often negotiated to be 3 months on unlimited contracts - limited contacts can't be terminated unilateral. And, depending on social situation, you can still sue immediately through the Arbeiterkammer[0] without any costs. [0]: https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/arbeitundrecht/beendigung/Arbeitgeber-Kuendigung.html https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/arbeitundrecht/beendi...
    - jahnu 2y ago
      Right there are some restrictions but people seem to have the weird idea that you can't get fired without cause or redundancy. If the employer does it correctly they can essentially get rid of anyone, those restrictions notwithstanding.
      - whilenot-dev 2y ago
        You can get fired immediately without cause, but that's against the law, and the law is pretty clear on lawful causes: § 27. Als ein wichtiger Grund, der den Dienstgeber zur vorzeitigen Entlassung berechtigt, ist insbesondere anzusehen: 1. Wenn der Angestellte im Dienste untreu ist, sich in seiner Tätigkeit ohne Wissen oder Willen des Dienstgebers von dritten Personen unberechtigte Vorteile zuwenden läßt, insbesondere entgegen der Bestimmung des § 13 eine Provision oder eine sonstige Belohnung annimmt, oder wenn er sich einer Handlung schuldig macht, die ihn des Vertrauens des Dienstgebers unwürdig erscheinen läßt; 2. wenn der Angestellte unfähig ist, die versprochenen oder die den Umständen nach angemessenen Dienste (§ 6) zu leisten; 3. wenn einer der im § 1 bezeichneten Angestellten ohne Einwilligung des Dienstgebers ein selbständiges kaufmännisches Unternehmen betreibt oder im Geschäftszweige des Dienstgebers für eigene oder fremde Rechnung Handelsgeschäfte macht oder wenn ein Angestellter den in § 7, Absatz 4, bezeichneten Verboten zuwiderhandelt; 4. wenn der Angestellte ohne einen rechtmäßigen Hinderungsgrund während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit die Dienstleistung unterläßt oder sich beharrlich weigert, seine Dienste zu leisten oder sich den durch den Gegenstand der Dienstleistung gerechtfertigten Anordnungen des Dienstgebers zu fügen, oder wenn er andere Bedienstete zum Ungehorsam gegen den Dienstgeber zu verleiten sucht; 5. wenn der Angestellte durch eine längere Freiheitsstrafe oder durch Abwesenheit während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit, ausgenommen wegen Krankheit oder Unglücksfalls, an der Verrichtung seiner Dienste gehindert ist; 6. wenn der Angestellte sich Tätlichkeiten, Verletzungen der Sittlichkeit oder erhebliche Ehrverletzungen gegen den Dienstgeber, dessen Stellvertreter, deren Angehörige oder gegen Mitbedienstete zuschulden kommen läßt. The employee can also "fire their employer", see § 26[0] for lawful causes. The proof of guilt is up to the one who fires in the end. I know of one person who got fired unlawful, and their ex-employer is now EUR 80k+ poorer. [0]: https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10008069 https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundes...
  - the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
    I would argue that's what makes it good employment law.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      How so? Wages are still lower than in Germany, Belgium, Sweden or Netherlands where it's difficult to dismiss someone without proper cause and a long process. Where are the benefits for Austrian workers for this lack of protection against firing versus countries that have protections? And where is this HN simping for ruthless capitalist that lay you off you the moment you get sick coming from? What am I not seeing here?
      - whilenot-dev 2y ago
        > And where is this HN simping for ruthless capitalist that lay you off you the moment you get sick coming from? Sounds like you made some experiences with the wrong people. The process is faster than in other european countries, true, but we're still far away from a short process... unemployment benefits, social healthcare, sick leave, holidays etc. A shorter process can open up good opportunities, but demands some security to enjoy the risks. I think we're mostly balancing this act and it's a good thing when it makes Austria more attractive to employers. Competition against Germany, Belgium, Sweden, or the Netherlands is in my own interest. Especially in the case of software engineering it can be beneficial to join unstable employments and be ready to change frequently. I'm mostly seeing it as grateful (depending on market), as you can only see so many system designs fail in your lifetime. :D
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        >Sounds like you made some experiences with the wrong people. This might shock you, but lot of Austrian employers behave like this: Hire and fire. Got sick? So long. This shouldn't be acceptable in an EU country. AK is also useless here because the laws are toothless. >unemployment benefits, social healthcare, sick leave, holidays etc Those exist in every other EU company where you can't lay off people just because you don't like their face anymore. >Competition against Germany, Belgium, Sweden, or the Netherlands is in my own interest. Yet those countries score better at innovation, entrepreneurship while having better worker rights and higher wages. How do you explain that? I'm not sure working yourself to death in a race to the bottom on lowering workers rights is a good strategy.
  - FredPret 2y ago
    The easier it is to fire or retrench someone, the easier it is to hire them. And if it's easy for me to hire... then it's easier for the next entrepreneur to hire... paradoxically driving wages up and forcing businesses to keep hiring high so as to keep their competitive edge. The only people suffering under such a system are freeloaders - who get hired and then proceed to lean on labour laws to stick around for a long time after their welcome has worn out.
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  > Could you elaborate on this a bit please? Austria has no sea access, no navy, few natural resources. Vienna is strategically not in a particularly amazing position compared to most other cities around. It's not clear to me what the fundamental reasons are why Vienna should be a large city other than that it historically was one, declined a bit and somehow regrew. I think it's great here, but I also cannot really understand why.
  - empath75 2y ago
    > Austria has no sea access, no navy, few natural resources. Austria used to have all of those things. Vienna itself is not particularly different from any other imperial capital in terms of its location.
  - whilenot-dev 2y ago
    Austria was mostly about mathematics, engineering and human sciences. There was an Austro-Hungarian Navy, and Josef Ressel gave the Royal Navy the world's most powerful navy with his invention of the propeller. :D
    - inglor_cz 2y ago
      Maths was stronger in Germany, especially in Heidelberg. Riemann, Hilbert et al. were all Germans. There was also a fairly strong Polish school of maths and formal logic, but it can only be called Austrian with some stretching of the word; while Galicia was part of the empire, it was about as far (ethnically, culturally and physically) from Vienna as possible.
  - kingkawn 2y ago
    Even a cursory look at its history would resolve these questions
  - paulgerhardt 2y ago
    Coffee. While Vienna is located at the crossroads between the planes and the Alps along the Danube making it modestly fortifiable from previous Ottoman incursions in 1529 and essential hub for quarterly markets. As the easternmost capital not to fall to the Ottomans, merchants that went to the Viennese markets would have valuable first arbitrage opportunities on eastern spices, textiles, medicines, gems, and ceramics coming from the east (the taxes on which solidified the Hapsburg position). However, it wasn’t until the siege of 1683 [1] that resulted in the Ottomans crushing defeat and withdrawal much like a port city by a sea only to see the sea recede. In that withdrawal the Ottomans left behind enough coffee in their abandoned provisions that the Viennese were able to open Europe’s first coffee house and cement Vienna as Europes premier nexus for academia :-) [1] https://youtu.be/ukyquQkQAYo https://youtu.be/ukyquQkQAYo
- wintermutestwin 2y ago
  >see the ban of AirBnB Huh? I was there this summer with my daughter and there were plenty of Airbnbs. They were dramatically more affordable (especially given my need for two separate rooms). I get the AirBnB hate from local renters, but as a frequent traveler, hotels suck so bad that they deserve disruption.
  - cg5280 2y ago
    I actually feel the opposite, I quite like the convenience that hotels offer (such as housekeeping, clean sheets) and I've found that unless you are doing longterm stays (1 month+) the prices between hotels and Airbnbs are usually comparable.
    - ghaff 2y ago
      I've done very little renting from AirBnBs and they can be cheaper and there are certainly certain types of properties (like whole house rentals) that aren't really available from traditional hotels vs. AirBnB/VRBO/etc. That said, especially for visiting a city, I'll pretty much go with traditional hotels, often chains, for the predictability. I've very rarely had a truly bad experience and it's usually been something like a badly situated luck-of-the-draw room and even that isn't usually a big deal in a city where I'm not spending a lot of time in a room. I can reliably checkin whenever, there's staff on-call, I don't usually care if I have a kitchen other than a small fridge (which many hotels have these days), and so forth. I've stayed in many B&Bs--some of which are also listed these days on AirBnB. Most have been good, some less so. Usually less of a good option in urban centers.
  - isaacremuant 2y ago
    Airbnb is just a scapegoat for the people who want quick solutions for the damage governments have done for ages. Competition is good and empowering people to make money off their assets (just like Uber) even better. Regulate it and hotels to protect consumers but don't pretend Airbnb's are the cause for housing being unaffordable to rent or buy. Specially not when you're taxing renters like mad and offering little in return. It's always funny reading takes in HN about places where you have first hand knowledge of, whether it be a geographic location or a company.
- rettetdemdativ 2y ago
  Renting is not capped, unless I'm reading your comment wrong and you mean that the city's government influences it. Vienna does not have an explicit cap. Newer flats and houses are index-bound and rents are raised depending on a certain inflation threshold. Older buildings are usually cheaper and there are strict rules on how much rent can be raised. What Vienna does to make renting an apartment affordable is build social housing. Lots of it. 500.000 people in Vienna live in social housing and the Gemeindebauten are actually nice to live in, priority is given to young Viennese still living with their parents, and you can stay in your apartment even if your income increases. The city can therefore bring down rents in the market as not only the poorest can live in these apartments, but they are a valid choice for many. There also isn't a ban on Airbnb. As someone else already commented, you can still stay at Airbnbs in Vienna. You cannot rent out apartments in social housing as Airbnbs anymore and there are areas in the city where you would have to get a special permit and other inhabitants of the building would have to agree.
  - spacechild1 2y ago
    Rent in old buildings (Altbau) is capped. The problem is that many landlords don't care and there are no penalties. You can charge back the extra rent but then your landlord will probably not extend your contract...
    - whilenot-dev 2y ago
      That's why: 1. make an unlimited contract 2. sue when you'll leave anyway The statute of limitations is 30 years.
      - spacechild1 2y ago
        > 1. make an unlimited contract That's a good one :-D > The statute of limitations is 30 years. It's actually 10 years. I thought it was less... > 2. sue when you'll leave anyway So that's actually a good strategy! Just note that there are certain deadlines, see https://wien.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/Wohnen/altbaumietencheck/FAQ_zum_Altbau-Mietencheck.html https://wien.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/Wohnen/altbaumietenc....
Rinzler89 2y ago
>The city somehow managed to find an identity on its own that somehow makes it work. It's not "somehow" by magic. The explanation is that as a neutral country between NATO and the former Iron Curtain, it was a middle-man for business, politics and trade between the two blocks in the cold war era, profiting from both parties without having to pay obligations to any of them. Basically it won the geopolitical lottery, similar to a Switzerland Light. Today with the Iron Curtain gone and the EU-Schengen borders extended east beyond Austria, it's a lot less relevant than it used to be and therefore a lot less profitable.
- jahnu 2y ago
  > it's a lot less relevant than it used to be and therefore a lot less profitable which metrics are you using for this assertion?
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    My 2 cents.
- john61 2y ago
  Since the end of the Iron Curtain Vienna population grew dramatically by the size of the second largest city in Austria (Graz). During the time of the Iron Curtain Vienna was the only big city in Europe that lost population. It was a grey, old, slowly dying city. The city and the quality of live evolved dramatically since then. I would call it a completely different and in my opinion in almost any regard much better, lively, young, modern city. But it managed to keep its very distinguished identity.
- namaria 2y ago
  Austrian legislation largely encourages clandestine ops and this brings a lot of offices, officials, fancy equipment and money to Vienna to this day.
jahnu 2y ago
One big reason why it's large is because it was once the capital of an empire. Why it grew back from being small due to WW2 up to the 90s is, my educated guess, the geography combined with the standard of living. Right up against the poorer east and rich west. Easy for young people to move from the poorer neighbours, for a short while or even stay. Abundant labour and low corruption [ignoring political ;)] then trades easily with its richer western neighbours.
- kingkawn 2y ago
  Vienna was also the primary neutral ground meeting point during the Cold War between soviet and western interests
  - dewey 2y ago
    It still is considered the "city of spies" because of some special cases in Austrian law: https://apnews.com/article/austria-spying-government-legislation-2f5dcf569a8b383d3b291065661e1b99 https://apnews.com/article/austria-spying-government-legisla...
shadowtree 2y ago
It sits on a major European waterway, the Danube, which after Vienna exists into the plain lands - Hungary, Romania. Started as a Roman settlement, Vindobona, it has been strategically important for a very long time. Paris without the Seine would equally be irrelevant. London too.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
> If you look at the geography, if you look at the political climate, just at the fundamentals it's not clear why Vienna is a large city Sits on the Danube and was the capital of the Austrian Empire, so very important all throughout the 1800s. I'd say strategically located in Central Europe. Then in the second half of the 20th C it was the gateway to the "East Bloc", the place where east meets west in terms of diplomacy, economic and cultural exchange, and of course espionage. It has played a neutral role similar to Switzerland, which is why OPEC is headquartered there. It's also one of the UN's four major sites worldwide (along with NY, Geneva, Nairobi). I spent a couple of years there; nice place to live; would happily return.
- Loudergood 2y ago
  Austria avoiding being split like Germany after WWII is a masterclass in geopolitics.
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    Casting itself as the victim of Germany was a smart move.
    - numewhodis 2y ago
      they are the control group "that doesn't 'have to' feel guilty" ...
    - fakedang 2y ago
      I mean they were the victim of Nazi infiltration. Dolfuss was assassinated, the Anschluss vote was practically a rigged vote and I'm sure Kurt Schussnigg was not pleased with the outcome.
      - aprilthird2021 2y ago
        And they also stole tons of land and businesses from the Jews who they helped expel into concentration camps they helped staff. Many of the famous cafes in Vienna itself, which show up in almost every writing about the city, were stolen from expelled Jews

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

whilenot-dev 2y ago

> If you look at the geography, if you look at the political climate, just at the fundamentals it's not clear why Vienna is a large city. Could you elaborate on this a bit please? Vienna has culturally always been considered the front door to eastern Europe (from a central European POV). Vienna is one of the best cities in central Europe to go for an academic degree: Renting is capped and still affordable (and wants to be kept that way btw, see the ban of AirBnB). There are almost no education fees, even non-austrians can apply for benefits from the government. With 200k students it's the largest german-speaking university city on par with Berlin[0]. The employment law is exemplary good. For me personally it isn't surprsing that almost 1/4th of whole Austria lives in Vienna. [0]: https://www.wien.gv.at/statistik/pdf/viennainfigures-2023.pdf https://www.wien.gv.at/statistik/pdf/viennainfigures-2023.pd...

Rinzler89 2y ago
>The employment law is exemplary good. Taht's not true at all. Employers can lay off workers for no reason at all at any time without paying any severance (unless you have a unio that can negotiate a better deal). Just hand them the notice and you're done.
- whilenot-dev 2y ago
  The notice period is 6 weeks at minimum by law and often negotiated to be 3 months on unlimited contracts - limited contacts can't be terminated unilateral. And, depending on social situation, you can still sue immediately through the Arbeiterkammer[0] without any costs. [0]: https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/arbeitundrecht/beendigung/Arbeitgeber-Kuendigung.html https://www.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/arbeitundrecht/beendi...
  - jahnu 2y ago
    Right there are some restrictions but people seem to have the weird idea that you can't get fired without cause or redundancy. If the employer does it correctly they can essentially get rid of anyone, those restrictions notwithstanding.
    - whilenot-dev 2y ago
      You can get fired immediately without cause, but that's against the law, and the law is pretty clear on lawful causes: § 27. Als ein wichtiger Grund, der den Dienstgeber zur vorzeitigen Entlassung berechtigt, ist insbesondere anzusehen: 1. Wenn der Angestellte im Dienste untreu ist, sich in seiner Tätigkeit ohne Wissen oder Willen des Dienstgebers von dritten Personen unberechtigte Vorteile zuwenden läßt, insbesondere entgegen der Bestimmung des § 13 eine Provision oder eine sonstige Belohnung annimmt, oder wenn er sich einer Handlung schuldig macht, die ihn des Vertrauens des Dienstgebers unwürdig erscheinen läßt; 2. wenn der Angestellte unfähig ist, die versprochenen oder die den Umständen nach angemessenen Dienste (§ 6) zu leisten; 3. wenn einer der im § 1 bezeichneten Angestellten ohne Einwilligung des Dienstgebers ein selbständiges kaufmännisches Unternehmen betreibt oder im Geschäftszweige des Dienstgebers für eigene oder fremde Rechnung Handelsgeschäfte macht oder wenn ein Angestellter den in § 7, Absatz 4, bezeichneten Verboten zuwiderhandelt; 4. wenn der Angestellte ohne einen rechtmäßigen Hinderungsgrund während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit die Dienstleistung unterläßt oder sich beharrlich weigert, seine Dienste zu leisten oder sich den durch den Gegenstand der Dienstleistung gerechtfertigten Anordnungen des Dienstgebers zu fügen, oder wenn er andere Bedienstete zum Ungehorsam gegen den Dienstgeber zu verleiten sucht; 5. wenn der Angestellte durch eine längere Freiheitsstrafe oder durch Abwesenheit während einer den Umständen nach erheblichen Zeit, ausgenommen wegen Krankheit oder Unglücksfalls, an der Verrichtung seiner Dienste gehindert ist; 6. wenn der Angestellte sich Tätlichkeiten, Verletzungen der Sittlichkeit oder erhebliche Ehrverletzungen gegen den Dienstgeber, dessen Stellvertreter, deren Angehörige oder gegen Mitbedienstete zuschulden kommen läßt. The employee can also "fire their employer", see § 26[0] for lawful causes. The proof of guilt is up to the one who fires in the end. I know of one person who got fired unlawful, and their ex-employer is now EUR 80k+ poorer. [0]: https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundesnormen&Gesetzesnummer=10008069 https://www.ris.bka.gv.at/GeltendeFassung.wxe?Abfrage=Bundes...
- the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
  I would argue that's what makes it good employment law.
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    How so? Wages are still lower than in Germany, Belgium, Sweden or Netherlands where it's difficult to dismiss someone without proper cause and a long process. Where are the benefits for Austrian workers for this lack of protection against firing versus countries that have protections? And where is this HN simping for ruthless capitalist that lay you off you the moment you get sick coming from? What am I not seeing here?
    - whilenot-dev 2y ago
      > And where is this HN simping for ruthless capitalist that lay you off you the moment you get sick coming from? Sounds like you made some experiences with the wrong people. The process is faster than in other european countries, true, but we're still far away from a short process... unemployment benefits, social healthcare, sick leave, holidays etc. A shorter process can open up good opportunities, but demands some security to enjoy the risks. I think we're mostly balancing this act and it's a good thing when it makes Austria more attractive to employers. Competition against Germany, Belgium, Sweden, or the Netherlands is in my own interest. Especially in the case of software engineering it can be beneficial to join unstable employments and be ready to change frequently. I'm mostly seeing it as grateful (depending on market), as you can only see so many system designs fail in your lifetime. :D
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        >Sounds like you made some experiences with the wrong people. This might shock you, but lot of Austrian employers behave like this: Hire and fire. Got sick? So long. This shouldn't be acceptable in an EU country. AK is also useless here because the laws are toothless. >unemployment benefits, social healthcare, sick leave, holidays etc Those exist in every other EU company where you can't lay off people just because you don't like their face anymore. >Competition against Germany, Belgium, Sweden, or the Netherlands is in my own interest. Yet those countries score better at innovation, entrepreneurship while having better worker rights and higher wages. How do you explain that? I'm not sure working yourself to death in a race to the bottom on lowering workers rights is a good strategy.
- FredPret 2y ago
  The easier it is to fire or retrench someone, the easier it is to hire them. And if it's easy for me to hire... then it's easier for the next entrepreneur to hire... paradoxically driving wages up and forcing businesses to keep hiring high so as to keep their competitive edge. The only people suffering under such a system are freeloaders - who get hired and then proceed to lean on labour laws to stick around for a long time after their welcome has worn out.
the_mitsuhiko 2y ago
> Could you elaborate on this a bit please? Austria has no sea access, no navy, few natural resources. Vienna is strategically not in a particularly amazing position compared to most other cities around. It's not clear to me what the fundamental reasons are why Vienna should be a large city other than that it historically was one, declined a bit and somehow regrew. I think it's great here, but I also cannot really understand why.
- empath75 2y ago
  > Austria has no sea access, no navy, few natural resources. Austria used to have all of those things. Vienna itself is not particularly different from any other imperial capital in terms of its location.
- whilenot-dev 2y ago
  Austria was mostly about mathematics, engineering and human sciences. There was an Austro-Hungarian Navy, and Josef Ressel gave the Royal Navy the world's most powerful navy with his invention of the propeller. :D
  - inglor_cz 2y ago
    Maths was stronger in Germany, especially in Heidelberg. Riemann, Hilbert et al. were all Germans. There was also a fairly strong Polish school of maths and formal logic, but it can only be called Austrian with some stretching of the word; while Galicia was part of the empire, it was about as far (ethnically, culturally and physically) from Vienna as possible.
- kingkawn 2y ago
  Even a cursory look at its history would resolve these questions
- paulgerhardt 2y ago
  Coffee. While Vienna is located at the crossroads between the planes and the Alps along the Danube making it modestly fortifiable from previous Ottoman incursions in 1529 and essential hub for quarterly markets. As the easternmost capital not to fall to the Ottomans, merchants that went to the Viennese markets would have valuable first arbitrage opportunities on eastern spices, textiles, medicines, gems, and ceramics coming from the east (the taxes on which solidified the Hapsburg position). However, it wasn’t until the siege of 1683 [1] that resulted in the Ottomans crushing defeat and withdrawal much like a port city by a sea only to see the sea recede. In that withdrawal the Ottomans left behind enough coffee in their abandoned provisions that the Viennese were able to open Europe’s first coffee house and cement Vienna as Europes premier nexus for academia :-) [1] https://youtu.be/ukyquQkQAYo https://youtu.be/ukyquQkQAYo
wintermutestwin 2y ago
>see the ban of AirBnB Huh? I was there this summer with my daughter and there were plenty of Airbnbs. They were dramatically more affordable (especially given my need for two separate rooms). I get the AirBnB hate from local renters, but as a frequent traveler, hotels suck so bad that they deserve disruption.
- cg5280 2y ago
  I actually feel the opposite, I quite like the convenience that hotels offer (such as housekeeping, clean sheets) and I've found that unless you are doing longterm stays (1 month+) the prices between hotels and Airbnbs are usually comparable.
  - ghaff 2y ago
    I've done very little renting from AirBnBs and they can be cheaper and there are certainly certain types of properties (like whole house rentals) that aren't really available from traditional hotels vs. AirBnB/VRBO/etc. That said, especially for visiting a city, I'll pretty much go with traditional hotels, often chains, for the predictability. I've very rarely had a truly bad experience and it's usually been something like a badly situated luck-of-the-draw room and even that isn't usually a big deal in a city where I'm not spending a lot of time in a room. I can reliably checkin whenever, there's staff on-call, I don't usually care if I have a kitchen other than a small fridge (which many hotels have these days), and so forth. I've stayed in many B&Bs--some of which are also listed these days on AirBnB. Most have been good, some less so. Usually less of a good option in urban centers.
- isaacremuant 2y ago
  Airbnb is just a scapegoat for the people who want quick solutions for the damage governments have done for ages. Competition is good and empowering people to make money off their assets (just like Uber) even better. Regulate it and hotels to protect consumers but don't pretend Airbnb's are the cause for housing being unaffordable to rent or buy. Specially not when you're taxing renters like mad and offering little in return. It's always funny reading takes in HN about places where you have first hand knowledge of, whether it be a geographic location or a company.
rettetdemdativ 2y ago
Renting is not capped, unless I'm reading your comment wrong and you mean that the city's government influences it. Vienna does not have an explicit cap. Newer flats and houses are index-bound and rents are raised depending on a certain inflation threshold. Older buildings are usually cheaper and there are strict rules on how much rent can be raised. What Vienna does to make renting an apartment affordable is build social housing. Lots of it. 500.000 people in Vienna live in social housing and the Gemeindebauten are actually nice to live in, priority is given to young Viennese still living with their parents, and you can stay in your apartment even if your income increases. The city can therefore bring down rents in the market as not only the poorest can live in these apartments, but they are a valid choice for many. There also isn't a ban on Airbnb. As someone else already commented, you can still stay at Airbnbs in Vienna. You cannot rent out apartments in social housing as Airbnbs anymore and there are areas in the city where you would have to get a special permit and other inhabitants of the building would have to agree.
- spacechild1 2y ago
  Rent in old buildings (Altbau) is capped. The problem is that many landlords don't care and there are no penalties. You can charge back the extra rent but then your landlord will probably not extend your contract...
  - whilenot-dev 2y ago
    That's why: 1. make an unlimited contract 2. sue when you'll leave anyway The statute of limitations is 30 years.
    - spacechild1 2y ago
      > 1. make an unlimited contract That's a good one :-D > The statute of limitations is 30 years. It's actually 10 years. I thought it was less... > 2. sue when you'll leave anyway So that's actually a good strategy! Just note that there are certain deadlines, see https://wien.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/Wohnen/altbaumietencheck/FAQ_zum_Altbau-Mietencheck.html https://wien.arbeiterkammer.at/beratung/Wohnen/altbaumietenc....

Rinzler89 2y ago

>The city somehow managed to find an identity on its own that somehow makes it work. It's not "somehow" by magic. The explanation is that as a neutral country between NATO and the former Iron Curtain, it was a middle-man for business, politics and trade between the two blocks in the cold war era, profiting from both parties without having to pay obligations to any of them. Basically it won the geopolitical lottery, similar to a Switzerland Light. Today with the Iron Curtain gone and the EU-Schengen borders extended east beyond Austria, it's a lot less relevant than it used to be and therefore a lot less profitable.

jahnu 2y ago
> it's a lot less relevant than it used to be and therefore a lot less profitable which metrics are you using for this assertion?
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  My 2 cents.
john61 2y ago
Since the end of the Iron Curtain Vienna population grew dramatically by the size of the second largest city in Austria (Graz). During the time of the Iron Curtain Vienna was the only big city in Europe that lost population. It was a grey, old, slowly dying city. The city and the quality of live evolved dramatically since then. I would call it a completely different and in my opinion in almost any regard much better, lively, young, modern city. But it managed to keep its very distinguished identity.
namaria 2y ago
Austrian legislation largely encourages clandestine ops and this brings a lot of offices, officials, fancy equipment and money to Vienna to this day.

jahnu 2y ago

One big reason why it's large is because it was once the capital of an empire. Why it grew back from being small due to WW2 up to the 90s is, my educated guess, the geography combined with the standard of living. Right up against the poorer east and rich west. Easy for young people to move from the poorer neighbours, for a short while or even stay. Abundant labour and low corruption [ignoring political ;)] then trades easily with its richer western neighbours.

kingkawn 2y ago
Vienna was also the primary neutral ground meeting point during the Cold War between soviet and western interests
- dewey 2y ago
  It still is considered the "city of spies" because of some special cases in Austrian law: https://apnews.com/article/austria-spying-government-legislation-2f5dcf569a8b383d3b291065661e1b99 https://apnews.com/article/austria-spying-government-legisla...

shadowtree 2y ago

It sits on a major European waterway, the Danube, which after Vienna exists into the plain lands - Hungary, Romania. Started as a Roman settlement, Vindobona, it has been strategically important for a very long time. Paris without the Seine would equally be irrelevant. London too.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

> If you look at the geography, if you look at the political climate, just at the fundamentals it's not clear why Vienna is a large city Sits on the Danube and was the capital of the Austrian Empire, so very important all throughout the 1800s. I'd say strategically located in Central Europe. Then in the second half of the 20th C it was the gateway to the "East Bloc", the place where east meets west in terms of diplomacy, economic and cultural exchange, and of course espionage. It has played a neutral role similar to Switzerland, which is why OPEC is headquartered there. It's also one of the UN's four major sites worldwide (along with NY, Geneva, Nairobi). I spent a couple of years there; nice place to live; would happily return.

Loudergood 2y ago
Austria avoiding being split like Germany after WWII is a masterclass in geopolitics.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  Casting itself as the victim of Germany was a smart move.
  - numewhodis 2y ago
    they are the control group "that doesn't 'have to' feel guilty" ...
  - fakedang 2y ago
    I mean they were the victim of Nazi infiltration. Dolfuss was assassinated, the Anschluss vote was practically a rigged vote and I'm sure Kurt Schussnigg was not pleased with the outcome.
    - aprilthird2021 2y ago
      And they also stole tons of land and businesses from the Jews who they helped expel into concentration camps they helped staff. Many of the famous cafes in Vienna itself, which show up in almost every writing about the city, were stolen from expelled Jews