4 ms·

They could draw from a lot of people already employed, and they have no incentive to mark up the price.

chii 2y ago
> They could draw from a lot of people already employed which means the city would need to pay above the existing wage for those people, since they're _already_ employed and would have no incentive to jump. > no incentive to mark up the price and have no incentive to try to save money or find novel efficiencies, since the money spent is not "theirs".
- ruthmarx 2y ago
  > which means the city would need to pay above the existing wage for those people, since they're _already_ employed and would have no incentive to jump. What? I'm talking about salaried employees already working for the city. > and have no incentive to try to save money or find novel efficiencies, since the money spent is not "theirs". Even if they are not trying to actively save money, they are not trying to actively make a profit so it would still be cheaper.
  - fastball 2y ago
    That's... not how it works. You can't just throw people at a problem and assume they will get it done for some fixed cost. Experience and existing infrastructure and solutions actually matter, and can make something significantly cheaper than building from scratch. Let's say you want to bake a loaf of bread. You're not a baker, so you don't have any of the skills, ingredients, or tools needed to bake this loaf. Also, you only want to bake the one loaf (just like building out a contactless ticket system is a single project that shouldn't need to be done over and over again). Which would you expect to be cheaper and faster: 1. buying everything you need to bake a loaf of bread and doing it yourself or 2. walking to the nearest bakery and buying a loaf there. Keep in mind that the bakery needs to make a profit, and you do not – so there is no way the bakery will end up being cheaper, right? And surely the seasoned professionals (who already have the necessary tools and ingredients) won't be faster at baking the loaf than you, a complete novice without those things.
    - ruthmarx 2y ago
      > That's... not how it works. If often is. Organizations with preexisting staff and knowledge frequently implement things instead of outsourcing. > Experience and existing infrastructure and solutions actually matter, and can make something significantly cheaper than building from scratch. Coming up with a secure fare payment and tracking system isn't some cutting edge concept. Work would still be outsourced where necessary, like ordering or manufacturing the hardware. > You're not a baker, so you don't have any of the skills, ingredients, or tools needed to bake this loaf. That's where the analogy fails. Municipal governments would have people with the skills, acquiring ingredients and tools could be outsourced as needed, but 'baking a loaf of bread' could still be mostly an internal project.
      - fastball 2y ago
        Why would a city that has never built a contactless ticket gate system have experience building a contactless ticket gate system?
        ruthmarx 2y ago
        It's not that hard is the basic answer. They have plenty of people with IT experience capable of managing the project to develop and in house implementation. Even outsourcing what they need to will be cheaper than going with what a company like Cubic offers, where the price is significantly marked up over the actual cost of developing. It's a better use of tax payer money with the bonus that the city is not dependent on a third party for-profit entity.
        fastball 2y ago
        Difficulty has almost nothing to do with it. It's about volume. Baking a loaf of bread is not particularly difficult either. But unless you plan to bake many loaves of bread, it is almost certainly neither cheaper nor faster to do so yourself, even if you have experience baking bread. Bakeries also have profit margins, and that changes nothing. All companies make a profit. That doesn't mean they are fleecing you. Do you make your own clothes? Certainly it must be cheaper to do it yourself rather than buy a shirt from a company, right? Because they have their profits to worry about. Does every city have its own manhole cover factory? Why not? Certainly it must be cheaper to build your own manhole cover factory (forging manhole covers is not a hard problem, after all) rather than pay a company to do it. After all, the manhole cover company is burdened by profit motive, and the city is not. Repeat ad nauseam.

chii 2y ago

> They could draw from a lot of people already employed which means the city would need to pay above the existing wage for those people, since they're _already_ employed and would have no incentive to jump. > no incentive to mark up the price and have no incentive to try to save money or find novel efficiencies, since the money spent is not "theirs".

ruthmarx 2y ago
> which means the city would need to pay above the existing wage for those people, since they're _already_ employed and would have no incentive to jump. What? I'm talking about salaried employees already working for the city. > and have no incentive to try to save money or find novel efficiencies, since the money spent is not "theirs". Even if they are not trying to actively save money, they are not trying to actively make a profit so it would still be cheaper.
- fastball 2y ago
  That's... not how it works. You can't just throw people at a problem and assume they will get it done for some fixed cost. Experience and existing infrastructure and solutions actually matter, and can make something significantly cheaper than building from scratch. Let's say you want to bake a loaf of bread. You're not a baker, so you don't have any of the skills, ingredients, or tools needed to bake this loaf. Also, you only want to bake the one loaf (just like building out a contactless ticket system is a single project that shouldn't need to be done over and over again). Which would you expect to be cheaper and faster: 1. buying everything you need to bake a loaf of bread and doing it yourself or 2. walking to the nearest bakery and buying a loaf there. Keep in mind that the bakery needs to make a profit, and you do not – so there is no way the bakery will end up being cheaper, right? And surely the seasoned professionals (who already have the necessary tools and ingredients) won't be faster at baking the loaf than you, a complete novice without those things.
  - ruthmarx 2y ago
    > That's... not how it works. If often is. Organizations with preexisting staff and knowledge frequently implement things instead of outsourcing. > Experience and existing infrastructure and solutions actually matter, and can make something significantly cheaper than building from scratch. Coming up with a secure fare payment and tracking system isn't some cutting edge concept. Work would still be outsourced where necessary, like ordering or manufacturing the hardware. > You're not a baker, so you don't have any of the skills, ingredients, or tools needed to bake this loaf. That's where the analogy fails. Municipal governments would have people with the skills, acquiring ingredients and tools could be outsourced as needed, but 'baking a loaf of bread' could still be mostly an internal project.
    - fastball 2y ago
      Why would a city that has never built a contactless ticket gate system have experience building a contactless ticket gate system?
      - ruthmarx 2y ago
        It's not that hard is the basic answer. They have plenty of people with IT experience capable of managing the project to develop and in house implementation. Even outsourcing what they need to will be cheaper than going with what a company like Cubic offers, where the price is significantly marked up over the actual cost of developing. It's a better use of tax payer money with the bonus that the city is not dependent on a third party for-profit entity.
        fastball 2y ago
        Difficulty has almost nothing to do with it. It's about volume. Baking a loaf of bread is not particularly difficult either. But unless you plan to bake many loaves of bread, it is almost certainly neither cheaper nor faster to do so yourself, even if you have experience baking bread. Bakeries also have profit margins, and that changes nothing. All companies make a profit. That doesn't mean they are fleecing you. Do you make your own clothes? Certainly it must be cheaper to do it yourself rather than buy a shirt from a company, right? Because they have their profits to worry about. Does every city have its own manhole cover factory? Why not? Certainly it must be cheaper to build your own manhole cover factory (forging manhole covers is not a hard problem, after all) rather than pay a company to do it. After all, the manhole cover company is burdened by profit motive, and the city is not. Repeat ad nauseam.