4 ms·

> “I think it ultimately does fall within the line of being ethical, but it isn’t a slam-dunk case” I concede that I haven’t thought as deeply about this as et

> “I think it ultimately does fall within the line of being ethical, but it isn’t a slam-dunk case” I concede that I haven’t thought as deeply about this as ethicists, but I strongly suspect that the cost/benefit calculation here is way over-cautious if you think the theoretical induced harm is remotely close to the benefits of publishing. The history of science is already full of self-experimenters, so at the margin publishing is unlikely to move the needle. Furthermore, patients with cancer diagnoses are already extremely motivated to try whatever experimental treatments the FDA will permit; self-experimentation is already supply-constrained (of experiment opportunities) and there is excess demand. Again fuzzy concerns about population-level harms overrule individuals’ rights to seek treatments for their fatal diagnoses.

MostlyStable 2y ago
I've been at least partly convinced that "medical ethics" very frequently looks nothing at all like what most people consider to be ethical. As far as I can tell, it exists mostly to prevent anyone from getting in trouble in the case that something goes wrong (which often means "do nothing"), rather than actually consider what is or is not ethical. It seems to be completely infected by the Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics [0] So, while they aren't always wrong, my default opinion is that, until given compelling evidence to the contrary, I shouldn't worry too much about what medical ethicists think on a particular topic. Even when they are right, they are usually right in a way that most normal people can easily see that it is correct. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20230302022931/https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230302022931/https://blog.jaib...
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  It exists because, in the very recent past, a lot of shady stuff has happened just because people were curious. The “Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male”; Dr. Chester Southam injecting cancer cells into unconsenting patients; Josef Mengele's experiments in Nazi concentration camps… Maybe they overcorrected, but there's good reason!
  - edm0nd 2y ago
    Also the Japanese Unit 731 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 The US government granted many of the "scientists" immunity in exchange for giving over all the data they had learned and helped even cover it up lol The Japanese did some real fucked up shit in these experiments like chopping off limbs and reattaching them to the opposite side and slicing open pregnant women. They also flew low flying planes over Chinese cities and dropped Plague-infected fleas which killed tens of thousands of people. In total, they killed hundreds of thousands of people.
    - whaleofatw2022 2y ago
      IIRC even Germany thought unit 731 was bonkers
    - brabel 2y ago
      TIL the USA not only let the people they captured go free in exchange for the information they had on Unit 731, they continued experiments until 1956, well after the war, though this time with Japanese victims.
    - Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
      better to let them die in vain and lose irreplicable, un-re-execable data?
  - johnchristopher 2y ago
    And Didier Raoulot https://www.lepoint.fr/sante/didier-raoult-30-years-of-unregulated-experiments-on-human-22-06-2023-2525726_40.php https://www.lepoint.fr/sante/didier-raoult-30-years-of-unreg...
  - kingkawn 2y ago
    A hospital I worked at would only provide dialysis to immigrants if they were in florid kidney failure. So they’d come to the ER dying, get dialysis once, then get released with no follow-up. They’d have to wait til they were back in kidney failure to come back, no preventative care was funded by the fed so they just stuck to that. There is no ethics in the American medical system. Anything claiming to represent it is a scam.
throw738484 2y ago
> cost/benefit calculation here is way over-cautious ... theoretically induced harm... fuzzy concerns about population-level harms It would be nice to at least have proper investigation of last alleged lab leak. When you talk about "fuzzy concerns" in light of last 4 years, I think you can not be serious. There are cases where ultra high security virus lab sold disposed corpses on food market!!!
- amanaplanacanal 2y ago
  The only people who could do that investigation would be China, and they seem disinclined. Or possibly they already have done the investigation and aren't telling the rest of the world their results.
SV_BubbleTime 2y ago
> overrule individuals’ rights to seek treatments for their fatal diagnoses. That was an objectively good things about Trump’s first term, pushing for and signing Right To Try.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
contravariant 2y ago
Medical ethics is a bit tricky. It's like the trolley problem on steroids. I mean pulling the lever so only 1 person has to die instead of 5 seems simple until suddenly you're harvesting a healthy person's organs to save 5 others. Heck we've seen it in action in covid-19 research. How much more useful data could we have had if we infected people deliberately? (or at least didn't just wait for them to get infected by chance) Sure some tens of people, maybe hundreds could have died as a result, but what is hundreds for a disease that kills millions? Besides, getting infected isn't even a death sentence, we've sent plenty of soldiers towards way worse odds.

MostlyStable 2y ago

I've been at least partly convinced that "medical ethics" very frequently looks nothing at all like what most people consider to be ethical. As far as I can tell, it exists mostly to prevent anyone from getting in trouble in the case that something goes wrong (which often means "do nothing"), rather than actually consider what is or is not ethical. It seems to be completely infected by the Copenhagen Interpretation of Ethics [0] So, while they aren't always wrong, my default opinion is that, until given compelling evidence to the contrary, I shouldn't worry too much about what medical ethicists think on a particular topic. Even when they are right, they are usually right in a way that most normal people can easily see that it is correct. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20230302022931/https://blog.jaibot.com/the-copenhagen-interpretation-of-ethics/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230302022931/https://blog.jaib...

wizzwizz4 2y ago
It exists because, in the very recent past, a lot of shady stuff has happened just because people were curious. The “Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male”; Dr. Chester Southam injecting cancer cells into unconsenting patients; Josef Mengele's experiments in Nazi concentration camps… Maybe they overcorrected, but there's good reason!
- edm0nd 2y ago
  Also the Japanese Unit 731 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731 The US government granted many of the "scientists" immunity in exchange for giving over all the data they had learned and helped even cover it up lol The Japanese did some real fucked up shit in these experiments like chopping off limbs and reattaching them to the opposite side and slicing open pregnant women. They also flew low flying planes over Chinese cities and dropped Plague-infected fleas which killed tens of thousands of people. In total, they killed hundreds of thousands of people.
  - whaleofatw2022 2y ago
    IIRC even Germany thought unit 731 was bonkers
  - brabel 2y ago
    TIL the USA not only let the people they captured go free in exchange for the information they had on Unit 731, they continued experiments until 1956, well after the war, though this time with Japanese victims.
  - Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
    better to let them die in vain and lose irreplicable, un-re-execable data?
- johnchristopher 2y ago
  And Didier Raoulot https://www.lepoint.fr/sante/didier-raoult-30-years-of-unregulated-experiments-on-human-22-06-2023-2525726_40.php https://www.lepoint.fr/sante/didier-raoult-30-years-of-unreg...
- kingkawn 2y ago
  A hospital I worked at would only provide dialysis to immigrants if they were in florid kidney failure. So they’d come to the ER dying, get dialysis once, then get released with no follow-up. They’d have to wait til they were back in kidney failure to come back, no preventative care was funded by the fed so they just stuck to that. There is no ethics in the American medical system. Anything claiming to represent it is a scam.

throw738484 2y ago

> cost/benefit calculation here is way over-cautious ... theoretically induced harm... fuzzy concerns about population-level harms It would be nice to at least have proper investigation of last alleged lab leak. When you talk about "fuzzy concerns" in light of last 4 years, I think you can not be serious. There are cases where ultra high security virus lab sold disposed corpses on food market!!!

amanaplanacanal 2y ago
The only people who could do that investigation would be China, and they seem disinclined. Or possibly they already have done the investigation and aren't telling the rest of the world their results.

SV_BubbleTime 2y ago

> overrule individuals’ rights to seek treatments for their fatal diagnoses. That was an objectively good things about Trump’s first term, pushing for and signing Right To Try.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

contravariant 2y ago

Medical ethics is a bit tricky. It's like the trolley problem on steroids. I mean pulling the lever so only 1 person has to die instead of 5 seems simple until suddenly you're harvesting a healthy person's organs to save 5 others. Heck we've seen it in action in covid-19 research. How much more useful data could we have had if we infected people deliberately? (or at least didn't just wait for them to get infected by chance) Sure some tens of people, maybe hundreds could have died as a result, but what is hundreds for a disease that kills millions? Besides, getting infected isn't even a death sentence, we've sent plenty of soldiers towards way worse odds.