5 ms·

The Body Keeps the Score is a brilliant but difficult read. Do recommend it. https://books.google.ca/books/about/The_Body_Keeps_the_Score.html?id=NKOOEAAAQBAJ

by neom 2y ago

The Body Keeps the Score is a brilliant but difficult read. Do recommend it. https://books.google.ca/books/about/The_Body_Keeps_the_Score.html?id=NKOOEAAAQBAJ https://books.google.ca/books/about/The_Body_Keeps_the_Score...

wslh 2y ago
Thank you for the reference, I think it contributes to add the overview: Trauma is a fact of life. Veterans and their families deal with the painful aftermath of combat; one in five Americans has been molested; one in four grew up with alcoholics; one in three couples have engaged in physical violence. Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, one of the world’s foremost experts on trauma, has spent over three decades working with survivors. In The Body Keeps the Score, he uses recent scientific advances to show how trauma literally reshapes both body and brain, compromising sufferers’ capacities for pleasure, engagement, self-control, and trust. He explores innovative treatments—from neurofeedback and meditation to sports, drama, and yoga—that offer new paths to recovery by activating the brain’s natural neuroplasticity. Based on Dr. van der Kolk’s own research and that of other leading specialists, The Body Keeps the Score exposes the tremendous power of our relationships both to hurt and to heal—and offers new hope for reclaiming lives.
- Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
  Thank you, this made a difference (and thanks noem for the book recc)
copperx 2y ago
Thanks. Does it require to know basic neurology? Or medicine? Why is it a difficult read?
- neom 2y ago
  emotionally difficult, he goes deeply into peoples trauma, so it gets into some extremely "triggering" areas, not much phases me but that book wasn't a super easy from a holding back tears perspective.
temp0826 2y ago
This came to mind when I saw the post. I work at an ayahuasca retreat center and these types of things are front and center here. Physical wounds can and do heal, but traumas ("energetic"/psychological wounds) remain fresh as the day they happened and influence us in immeasurable ways. The effects of ayahuasca often put a spotlight on them and it can be a rough ride until they are fully processed.
- Cantinflas 2y ago
  Imo treating traumas with ayahuasca is like treating flu with a baseball bat.
  - PittleyDunkin 2y ago
    I think the analogy here would be diagnosis (beyond western-defined ontologies) rather than treatment. Treatment comes later.
  - temp0826 2y ago
    It's a different school of thought for sure. We find traditional therapy to be very synergistic with it. Sometimes one can cognitively know how to fix something, but despite that it still sticks in the body. Ayahuasca can help to "percolate" that knowing into the body/nervous system for great results.
    - sirsinsalot 2y ago
      Cite your sources. Just because something feels true doesn't make it so.
      - literalAardvark 2y ago
        Conversely, a good deal of real human knowledge isn't in studies yet.
        jraph 2y ago
mettamage 2y ago
But isn't it because in reality, the limbic system keeps the score? Example [1]. I also think he mentioned it himself. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8418154/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8418154/
bob_theslob646 2y ago
This book is extremely controversial https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/11/12/book-review-the-body-keeps-the-score/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/11/12/book-review-the-body-k... >As various approaches that can help people with PTSD are suggested by the author, the book would be more comprehensive if further empirical findings are provided to demonstrate their effectiveness and how readers can integrate them into practice https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8418154/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8418154/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ptsd/comments/plskph/warning_the_body_keeps_the_score_is_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ptsd/comments/plskph/warning_the_bo... https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2023/08/02/body-keeps-score-grieving-brain-bessel-van-der-kolk-neuroscience-self-help/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2023/08/02/body-keeps-s... https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/body-keeps-score-trauma/ https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/body-keeps-score-trauma/ https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/01/03/the-case-against-the-trauma-plot https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/01/03/the-case-again... https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/analysis-of-the-body-keeps-score.1482395/ https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/analysis-of-the-bod... A Critical Evaluation of Bessel van der Kolk’s The Body Keeps the Score By Francine Tan
- neom 2y ago
  I clicked the top link (nlm) and the bottom link (some forum) - the top link is a a pretty positive review, and the bottom link is incomprehensible, and the second link is... reddit...? controversial.
  - bob_theslob646 2y ago
    top link >this is a very pre-replication crisis book. I don’t hold this against the author, I don’t think anyone’s really proud of what they believed pre-replication crisis, but it’s undoubtedly a product of its time. Mirror neurons, candidate genes, left- vs right-brained people, etc all make dramatic appearances. Nothing (except the genetics parts) are inexcusable or even certainly wrong, but all of them together concern me. And several of the book’s key studies are contradicted by later, larger studies. Van der Kolk talks about how childhood trauma decreases IQ, but some pretty good studies say it doesn’t. Even the studies that have passed the test of time look a little weird. The Adverse Childhood Experiences study found that obesity and other seemingly nonpsychiatric diseases were linked to child abuse, and recent studies confirm this – but the controls for socioeconomic status are always insufficient, and there’s surprisingly little shared environmental component. I’m biased about this, everyone’s biased, but part of the book was meant to prove that child abuse mattered shockingly more than you thought it possibly could, and that part was wasted on me.

by neom 2y ago

wslh 2y ago

Thank you for the reference, I think it contributes to add the overview: Trauma is a fact of life. Veterans and their families deal with the painful aftermath of combat; one in five Americans has been molested; one in four grew up with alcoholics; one in three couples have engaged in physical violence. Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, one of the world’s foremost experts on trauma, has spent over three decades working with survivors. In The Body Keeps the Score, he uses recent scientific advances to show how trauma literally reshapes both body and brain, compromising sufferers’ capacities for pleasure, engagement, self-control, and trust. He explores innovative treatments—from neurofeedback and meditation to sports, drama, and yoga—that offer new paths to recovery by activating the brain’s natural neuroplasticity. Based on Dr. van der Kolk’s own research and that of other leading specialists, The Body Keeps the Score exposes the tremendous power of our relationships both to hurt and to heal—and offers new hope for reclaiming lives.

Jerrrrrrry 2y ago
Thank you, this made a difference (and thanks noem for the book recc)

copperx 2y ago

Thanks. Does it require to know basic neurology? Or medicine? Why is it a difficult read?

neom 2y ago
emotionally difficult, he goes deeply into peoples trauma, so it gets into some extremely "triggering" areas, not much phases me but that book wasn't a super easy from a holding back tears perspective.

temp0826 2y ago

This came to mind when I saw the post. I work at an ayahuasca retreat center and these types of things are front and center here. Physical wounds can and do heal, but traumas ("energetic"/psychological wounds) remain fresh as the day they happened and influence us in immeasurable ways. The effects of ayahuasca often put a spotlight on them and it can be a rough ride until they are fully processed.

Cantinflas 2y ago
Imo treating traumas with ayahuasca is like treating flu with a baseball bat.
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago
  I think the analogy here would be diagnosis (beyond western-defined ontologies) rather than treatment. Treatment comes later.
- temp0826 2y ago
  It's a different school of thought for sure. We find traditional therapy to be very synergistic with it. Sometimes one can cognitively know how to fix something, but despite that it still sticks in the body. Ayahuasca can help to "percolate" that knowing into the body/nervous system for great results.
  - sirsinsalot 2y ago
    Cite your sources. Just because something feels true doesn't make it so.
    - literalAardvark 2y ago
      Conversely, a good deal of real human knowledge isn't in studies yet.
      - jraph 2y ago

mettamage 2y ago

But isn't it because in reality, the limbic system keeps the score? Example [1]. I also think he mentioned it himself. [1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8418154/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8418154/

bob_theslob646 2y ago

This book is extremely controversial https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/11/12/book-review-the-body-keeps-the-score/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/11/12/book-review-the-body-k... >As various approaches that can help people with PTSD are suggested by the author, the book would be more comprehensive if further empirical findings are provided to demonstrate their effectiveness and how readers can integrate them into practice https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8418154/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8418154/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ptsd/comments/plskph/warning_the_body_keeps_the_score_is_a/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ptsd/comments/plskph/warning_the_bo... https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2023/08/02/body-keeps-score-grieving-brain-bessel-van-der-kolk-neuroscience-self-help/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/books/2023/08/02/body-keeps-s... https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/body-keeps-score-trauma/ https://bigthink.com/neuropsych/body-keeps-score-trauma/ https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/01/03/the-case-against-the-trauma-plot https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/01/03/the-case-again... https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/analysis-of-the-body-keeps-score.1482395/ https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/analysis-of-the-bod... A Critical Evaluation of Bessel van der Kolk’s The Body Keeps the Score By Francine Tan

neom 2y ago
I clicked the top link (nlm) and the bottom link (some forum) - the top link is a a pretty positive review, and the bottom link is incomprehensible, and the second link is... reddit...? controversial.
- bob_theslob646 2y ago
  top link >this is a very pre-replication crisis book. I don’t hold this against the author, I don’t think anyone’s really proud of what they believed pre-replication crisis, but it’s undoubtedly a product of its time. Mirror neurons, candidate genes, left- vs right-brained people, etc all make dramatic appearances. Nothing (except the genetics parts) are inexcusable or even certainly wrong, but all of them together concern me. And several of the book’s key studies are contradicted by later, larger studies. Van der Kolk talks about how childhood trauma decreases IQ, but some pretty good studies say it doesn’t. Even the studies that have passed the test of time look a little weird. The Adverse Childhood Experiences study found that obesity and other seemingly nonpsychiatric diseases were linked to child abuse, and recent studies confirm this – but the controls for socioeconomic status are always insufficient, and there’s surprisingly little shared environmental component. I’m biased about this, everyone’s biased, but part of the book was meant to prove that child abuse mattered shockingly more than you thought it possibly could, and that part was wasted on me.