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Whether or not mitochondria were once viable independent organisms that were absorbed by early eukaryotes does not depend on whether we call their modern descen

Whether or not mitochondria were once viable independent organisms that were absorbed by early eukaryotes does not depend on whether we call their modern descendants "living" or not. If we determine that they did, then we still don't have to call them alive -- certainly things like mitosomes exist and are suspected to have either evolved from mitochondria or evolved after amitochondrial division, but do not have DNA and do not reproduce independently but fulfil similar functions. We know they have DNA, we know they reproduce independently of the host cell, we know to a degree why they tend to move to both sides on cell division. We know lots of stuff about them and we can always learn lots more. Whether they are "alive" or not has absolutely no bearing on that, other than to naval-gaze.

dekhn 2y ago
Oh, I see, you're getting hung up on the use of the term alive for modern mitochondria. This sort of definitional argument is not interesting to me.
- andrewla 2y ago
  I think we're in agreement then -- this article is not about "did mitochondria evolve from absorbed viable organisms as opposed to evolving directly", which is an interesting question that impacts our understanding of evolution in microbiology. The article is about whether "Microchondria Are Alive" which is a useless naval-gaze.
  - dekhn 2y ago
    I dunno if I agree it's a total navel gaze. For example I could easily see a scientist asking the question, "if mitochrondira are not alive, at which point did the phagocytosis of the initial prokaryotic cell lead to the mitochondria not being alive?" "What components were lost in the cell that lead to the loss of life?" I agree these aren't particularly useful, and are ultimately definitional, but definitions matter a lot in science, especially when paradigms change.
    - andrewla 2y ago
      This is a much more interesting question, and this is what I mean by an operational definition of life. In your first question, "alive" can have useful operational definitions -- whether it is viable outside of a cell, whether it has or had its own immune system and structure, how it survived without the organelles that other full-fledged cells seem to have but mitochondria lack, etc. The question in the abstract is not really useful except to answer trick questions in bar trivia.

dekhn 2y ago

Oh, I see, you're getting hung up on the use of the term alive for modern mitochondria. This sort of definitional argument is not interesting to me.

andrewla 2y ago
I think we're in agreement then -- this article is not about "did mitochondria evolve from absorbed viable organisms as opposed to evolving directly", which is an interesting question that impacts our understanding of evolution in microbiology. The article is about whether "Microchondria Are Alive" which is a useless naval-gaze.
- dekhn 2y ago
  I dunno if I agree it's a total navel gaze. For example I could easily see a scientist asking the question, "if mitochrondira are not alive, at which point did the phagocytosis of the initial prokaryotic cell lead to the mitochondria not being alive?" "What components were lost in the cell that lead to the loss of life?" I agree these aren't particularly useful, and are ultimately definitional, but definitions matter a lot in science, especially when paradigms change.
  - andrewla 2y ago
    This is a much more interesting question, and this is what I mean by an operational definition of life. In your first question, "alive" can have useful operational definitions -- whether it is viable outside of a cell, whether it has or had its own immune system and structure, how it survived without the organelles that other full-fledged cells seem to have but mitochondria lack, etc. The question in the abstract is not really useful except to answer trick questions in bar trivia.