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The restrictions on purchasing pseudeophedrine should be repealed. Their imposition led methamphetamine manufacturers to switch to a more efficient process base

by Zak 2y ago

The restrictions on purchasing pseudeophedrine should be repealed. Their imposition led methamphetamine manufacturers to switch to a more efficient process based on different ingredients. Purity and production volume increased substantially. A repeal won't turn back the clock on that of course, but it will make life easier for people with congestion. https://dynomight.net/p2p-meth/ https://dynomight.net/p2p-meth/

Stevvo 2y ago
Wasn't that literally the plot of Breaking Bad? Walt's meth was p2p meth.
- jcpham2 2y ago
  Yes. Jesse couldn't score enough product via his smurfs, so they had to find an alternate industrial method for quantity purposes - in the show.
mullingitover 2y ago
I'm just as annoyed with the hurdles to buying real pseudoephedrine as anyone else, but let's not make the production of bathtub meth any easier. It is not worth it.
- Clubber 2y ago
  Why? Do you believe it made any dent in meth manufacturing what so ever? It's just drug war theatre.
  - verteu 2y ago
    It seemed to decrease the number of exploding meth labs in the country: https://www.statista.com/statistics/942043/laboratory-incidents-methamphetamine-in-the-us https://www.statista.com/statistics/942043/laboratory-incide...
    - Zak 2y ago
      That seems to track pretty well with the rise of P2P meth. It's unlikely many people would return to setting up small labs using pseudoephedrine because large scale operations using P2P have driven the price down to the point that it wouldn't be profitable. There might be an increase in people making tiny batches for personal use if pseudoephedrine became easier to get, but nothing on the scale of 20 years ago.
      - Clubber 2y ago
        What is P2P meth? I always think peer to peer.
        Zak 2y ago
        P2P is phenyl-2-propanone, an ingredient in some methods of synthesizing methamphetamine. In supply chain terms, it is much harder to restrict than the previously-popular ephedrine and pseudoephedrine because it can be synthesized from many common chemicals.
- Zak 2y ago
  Given the prevalence of P2P meth and apparent inability of governments to do anything about it, this does not seem like a rational position to me. If there was any reason to believe that large scale production will ever be substantially curbed, there might be a case for it.
  - mullingitover 2y ago
    Yes, P2p meth is rampant and cheap. However I look at it like this: Meth addicts will absolutely decide to become chefs if the ingredients are readily available, even if there's a McDonalds down the street. You're approaching this rationally, which is not what meth addicts are going to do.
    - marcosdumay 2y ago
      If it is readily available down the street, it looks to me that people cooking their own is a superior outcome for society in every single way than they buying it down-street. Even more if the professional labs close down due to lack of customers.
      - mullingitover 2y ago
        A buddy of mine worked his way through college cleaning out meth labs in homes and motels after they had (typically) blown themselves up. They are toxic nightmares. He was especially shaken when he'd find the family photos indicating that the labs were operating while children were in the home. The professional labs would absolutely not close down due to lack of customers, there would just be even more meth available, more contaminated, with the bonus of hazmat sites peppering communities.
busterarm 2y ago
Right, but would reopen the door to your random tweakers setting up shit labs in squats/rental properties and destroying property values. That stuff's toxic AF even if the labs don't blow up.
- standardUser 2y ago
  Restrictions on pseudoephedrine did nothing to curtail the manufacture, sale or use of amphetamines in this country. It didn't even raise the price. If anything, speed of all kinds is easier to get today.
  - HDThoreaun 2y ago
    The restrictions centralized production though. Now almost all meth is being made in a lab that can import Phenylacetone from china. That's safer than someone next door setting up an explosive cookhouse.
    - willcipriano 2y ago
      Even safer if they sold it at Walmart.
- 0x457 2y ago
  meth production didn't stop, in fact it switched to far more efficient ingdidient and made meth much worse than it was before. It's cheaper and pure than it was ever been since the ban.
jjice 2y ago
> ...but it will make life easier for people with congestion I haven't purchased pseudeophedrine, but my understanding was that you just walked up to the counter and had to sign your name at the pharmacy. Is that not the case? Doesn't seem like a big pain if that's the case.
- jcpham2 2y ago
  You can can do this or your doctor can write you a prescription. I've never stopped using pseudoephedrine and depending on how congested I am sometimes it's the little red 4 hour pills or sometimes it's the big monster 12 hour version - but your doctor can write a generic prescription for pseudoephedrine and the quantity and amount and you can buy a box that way via cash or insurance too.
- Zak 2y ago
  It means you have to go to the pharmacy when it's open. That's a significant hurdle if you're sick, especially if you have something contagious and you're trying not to expose people to it, or if you work weird hours, or if you don't have reliable transportation, or if you're the primary caregiver for young children, etc.... It also means you can't get it delivered, can't stock up, might have trouble sending someone else to get it, etc.... It's a big pain for some people, and particularly for people who already have a harder life than average.
- ultrarunner 2y ago
  GP said: > Some people stopped buying pseudoephedrine entirely, either because they were offended by these rules or because they were afraid that they could wrongly be implicated in meth investigations if they appeared to buy it too often. This has actually happened [0], and I seem to remember more instances (at least when the law was first passed). I know I have also gone to buy it in a headache-induced fog and found that I've forgotten my ID, and on at least one occasion the national drug whatever system was down and they refused to sell it. Because it has to be run through the specific national database, it has to be run through one department and I have been unable to purchase because that department has closed for the day. These are just what comes to mind when I think about purchasing pseudoephedrine over the years; it's just generally become a pain to get. It makes me wonder if it'd be quicker and easier to just buy meth and reintroduce the hydroxyl group to get my cold medicine. [0] https://reason.com/2009/09/28/hoosier-grandmother-arrested-f/ https://reason.com/2009/09/28/hoosier-grandmother-arrested-f...
ibejoeb 2y ago
It was a real win/win. Tens of millions of people lost access to an effective drug in order to penalize maybe a few thousand that were using it as a precursor to making mamp. But, hey, we beat street meth, right?
- CrazyStat 2y ago
  > Tens of millions of people lost access This is a bit hyperbolic. You just have to ask for it at the counter and show ID.
  - ibejoeb 2y ago
    Only certain documents are accepted: photo documents issued by a US state and certain federal documents. There are some exceptions in the initial act text, but in practice, nobody is going to accept your nursery school record. There are certainly 10s of millions of people who don't have direct access to this drug.
    - phaedrus441 2y ago
      You honestly think there are 10s of millions of people wanting a decongestant in the United States without ID? This is ridiculous and I agree with the other commenter, a bit hyperbolic.
      - ibejoeb 2y ago
        I honestly think it's on that order, yes. Anyone who has had a respiratory infection, a sinus headache, or seasonal allergies. Anyone who would take NyQuil. Over the course of 18 years. Why is that so hard to believe? In fact, now that I think about it more, it's probably a lot more.
      - efitz 2y ago
        No, but why the hell should someone else’s misbehavior cost me time and inconvenience? The cost of these regulations is millions, perhaps billions of dollars in extra effort, bookkeeping and security by tens of thousands of businesses, not to mention lost productivity and frustration on the part of everyone else evolved, and moats of the costs and inconvenience is borne by people outside the government, who are not committing a crime. It’s bat shit crazy that bureaucrats are allowed to steal this much productivity from the economy.

by Zak 2y ago

Stevvo 2y ago

Wasn't that literally the plot of Breaking Bad? Walt's meth was p2p meth.

jcpham2 2y ago
Yes. Jesse couldn't score enough product via his smurfs, so they had to find an alternate industrial method for quantity purposes - in the show.

mullingitover 2y ago

I'm just as annoyed with the hurdles to buying real pseudoephedrine as anyone else, but let's not make the production of bathtub meth any easier. It is not worth it.

Clubber 2y ago
Why? Do you believe it made any dent in meth manufacturing what so ever? It's just drug war theatre.
- verteu 2y ago
  It seemed to decrease the number of exploding meth labs in the country: https://www.statista.com/statistics/942043/laboratory-incidents-methamphetamine-in-the-us https://www.statista.com/statistics/942043/laboratory-incide...
  - Zak 2y ago
    That seems to track pretty well with the rise of P2P meth. It's unlikely many people would return to setting up small labs using pseudoephedrine because large scale operations using P2P have driven the price down to the point that it wouldn't be profitable. There might be an increase in people making tiny batches for personal use if pseudoephedrine became easier to get, but nothing on the scale of 20 years ago.
    - Clubber 2y ago
      What is P2P meth? I always think peer to peer.
      - Zak 2y ago
        P2P is phenyl-2-propanone, an ingredient in some methods of synthesizing methamphetamine. In supply chain terms, it is much harder to restrict than the previously-popular ephedrine and pseudoephedrine because it can be synthesized from many common chemicals.
Zak 2y ago
Given the prevalence of P2P meth and apparent inability of governments to do anything about it, this does not seem like a rational position to me. If there was any reason to believe that large scale production will ever be substantially curbed, there might be a case for it.
- mullingitover 2y ago
  Yes, P2p meth is rampant and cheap. However I look at it like this: Meth addicts will absolutely decide to become chefs if the ingredients are readily available, even if there's a McDonalds down the street. You're approaching this rationally, which is not what meth addicts are going to do.
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    If it is readily available down the street, it looks to me that people cooking their own is a superior outcome for society in every single way than they buying it down-street. Even more if the professional labs close down due to lack of customers.
    - mullingitover 2y ago
      A buddy of mine worked his way through college cleaning out meth labs in homes and motels after they had (typically) blown themselves up. They are toxic nightmares. He was especially shaken when he'd find the family photos indicating that the labs were operating while children were in the home. The professional labs would absolutely not close down due to lack of customers, there would just be even more meth available, more contaminated, with the bonus of hazmat sites peppering communities.

busterarm 2y ago

Right, but would reopen the door to your random tweakers setting up shit labs in squats/rental properties and destroying property values. That stuff's toxic AF even if the labs don't blow up.

standardUser 2y ago
Restrictions on pseudoephedrine did nothing to curtail the manufacture, sale or use of amphetamines in this country. It didn't even raise the price. If anything, speed of all kinds is easier to get today.
- HDThoreaun 2y ago
  The restrictions centralized production though. Now almost all meth is being made in a lab that can import Phenylacetone from china. That's safer than someone next door setting up an explosive cookhouse.
  - willcipriano 2y ago
    Even safer if they sold it at Walmart.
0x457 2y ago
meth production didn't stop, in fact it switched to far more efficient ingdidient and made meth much worse than it was before. It's cheaper and pure than it was ever been since the ban.

jjice 2y ago

> ...but it will make life easier for people with congestion I haven't purchased pseudeophedrine, but my understanding was that you just walked up to the counter and had to sign your name at the pharmacy. Is that not the case? Doesn't seem like a big pain if that's the case.

jcpham2 2y ago
You can can do this or your doctor can write you a prescription. I've never stopped using pseudoephedrine and depending on how congested I am sometimes it's the little red 4 hour pills or sometimes it's the big monster 12 hour version - but your doctor can write a generic prescription for pseudoephedrine and the quantity and amount and you can buy a box that way via cash or insurance too.
Zak 2y ago
It means you have to go to the pharmacy when it's open. That's a significant hurdle if you're sick, especially if you have something contagious and you're trying not to expose people to it, or if you work weird hours, or if you don't have reliable transportation, or if you're the primary caregiver for young children, etc.... It also means you can't get it delivered, can't stock up, might have trouble sending someone else to get it, etc.... It's a big pain for some people, and particularly for people who already have a harder life than average.
ultrarunner 2y ago
GP said: > Some people stopped buying pseudoephedrine entirely, either because they were offended by these rules or because they were afraid that they could wrongly be implicated in meth investigations if they appeared to buy it too often. This has actually happened [0], and I seem to remember more instances (at least when the law was first passed). I know I have also gone to buy it in a headache-induced fog and found that I've forgotten my ID, and on at least one occasion the national drug whatever system was down and they refused to sell it. Because it has to be run through the specific national database, it has to be run through one department and I have been unable to purchase because that department has closed for the day. These are just what comes to mind when I think about purchasing pseudoephedrine over the years; it's just generally become a pain to get. It makes me wonder if it'd be quicker and easier to just buy meth and reintroduce the hydroxyl group to get my cold medicine. [0] https://reason.com/2009/09/28/hoosier-grandmother-arrested-f/ https://reason.com/2009/09/28/hoosier-grandmother-arrested-f...

ibejoeb 2y ago

It was a real win/win. Tens of millions of people lost access to an effective drug in order to penalize maybe a few thousand that were using it as a precursor to making mamp. But, hey, we beat street meth, right?

CrazyStat 2y ago
> Tens of millions of people lost access This is a bit hyperbolic. You just have to ask for it at the counter and show ID.
- ibejoeb 2y ago
  Only certain documents are accepted: photo documents issued by a US state and certain federal documents. There are some exceptions in the initial act text, but in practice, nobody is going to accept your nursery school record. There are certainly 10s of millions of people who don't have direct access to this drug.
  - phaedrus441 2y ago
    You honestly think there are 10s of millions of people wanting a decongestant in the United States without ID? This is ridiculous and I agree with the other commenter, a bit hyperbolic.
    - ibejoeb 2y ago
      I honestly think it's on that order, yes. Anyone who has had a respiratory infection, a sinus headache, or seasonal allergies. Anyone who would take NyQuil. Over the course of 18 years. Why is that so hard to believe? In fact, now that I think about it more, it's probably a lot more.
    - efitz 2y ago
      No, but why the hell should someone else’s misbehavior cost me time and inconvenience? The cost of these regulations is millions, perhaps billions of dollars in extra effort, bookkeeping and security by tens of thousands of businesses, not to mention lost productivity and frustration on the part of everyone else evolved, and moats of the costs and inconvenience is borne by people outside the government, who are not committing a crime. It’s bat shit crazy that bureaucrats are allowed to steal this much productivity from the economy.