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Apple does have this stance. They have been subpoenaed before to assist in unlocking older iPhones that don't have as strong protection of user data as modern i

Apple does have this stance. They have been subpoenaed before to assist in unlocking older iPhones that don't have as strong protection of user data as modern iPhones and they refused those orders as well. Basically older iPhones without the modern secure enclave enforced the password attempt lockout period in software so the FBI obtained a court order to force apple to create and sign a new version of iOS that would not enforce the lockout period, which would allow the FBI to guess the password. Apple refused to create this new version of iOS and the FBI eventually retracted their request. Modern iPhones enforce the lockout period in the secure enclave hardware so this is no longer something Apple could even possibly assist with. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_dispute#Apple_ordered_to_assist_the_FBI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%E2%80%93FBI_encryption_d...

EMIRELADERO 2y ago
> Modern iPhones enforce the lockout period in the secure enclave hardware so this is no longer something Apple could even possibly assist with. You mean in the sillicon itself? If it's done in the Secure Enclave's firmware then Apple could assist with unlocking.
- kbolino 2y ago
  I would think that the secure enclave controls the device (un-)locking process and also wouldn't install OTA firmware updates nor accept commands from USB-connected peripherals while the device is locked.
  - altairprime 2y ago
    Settings > Passcode > Allow access when locked: [_] Accessories. Off by default, providing a one hour timeout since last phone unlock; or instantly, upon biometric rejection or after holding power-volume-up to reach the power off menu. Macs are typically enabling an equivalent to this by default as well now, as of the latest macOS update.
- MBCook 2y ago
  That’s what I meant by this: > …sign tampered with firmware that would allow the decryption without user authorization. Apple wrote the firmware for everything. I assume they could write firmware to not need authorization, embedded in a copy of iOS, and sign everything so it could be installed on a phone through DFU. They have been unwilling to do so. I think they’re right not to. But I suspect it is technically possible.
  - tmottabr 2y ago
    But if court ordered then to do so they would have to.. In the previous case law enforcement retracted the request because they found an alternative.. If the alternative stop working i bet you they will go after Apple in courts again..
    - wobfan 2y ago
      There have been multiple credible sources with internal documents claiming that iPhone with the current firmware (>17) can’t be hacked currently. It’s in constant flux, obviously, but iOS is very advanced on this aspect. Android phones on the other hand, apart from the Pixels >6, are all hackable with appropriate tooling.
      - fsflover 2y ago
        > multiple credible sources with internal documents claiming that iPhone with the current firmware (>17) can’t be hacked currently You can't prove a negative.
      - tmottabr 2y ago
        As far as i remember there is a single leaked document about a specific celebrite version that had iOS 17 marked as already supported for some devices up to version 17.0.3, versions 17.1 to 17.3.1 as coming soon and 17.4 as in research.. And that document is from last April, 7 months ago, no one really knows how things progressed after that.. Best assumption to make is that all those versions are supported by now.. support for iOS 18 could be available or not, we do not know.. So again i will assume it is supported until the opposite is proved.. But all the latest iPhones in latest iOS versions were only supported in AFU, that apple is handling with this reset feature, or IPR, that require USB being unlocked and is extremely time sensitive as there are already defenses in place..
- adastra22 2y ago
  The whole point of a Secure Enclave is that you can’t perform such an update without wiping the data.
  - HHad3 2y ago
    You can update SEP firmware, but only by providing your PIN. This is why iOS prompts for you PIN again before updating. This still effectively prevents Apple from adding backdoor to be installed on phones the user can no longer access.
    - adastra22 2y ago
      Depends on the enclave. I don't know Apple's, but the ones I worked with would wipe secure data on a firmware update.
tssva 2y ago
The case you reference did not involve a subpoena but an order under the All Writs Act. Annorder which compelled certain behaviour unless the order was appealed within a specified time. Apple appealed the order within that time period and thus was in full compliance with the order. The government withdrew the case before the courts could rule whether the order was legal. I assume Apple would have complied with it if it was ruled so. What we do know from this case is that Apple did attempt to assist the FBI with accessing the phone even without a court compelling them to do so.

EMIRELADERO 2y ago

> Modern iPhones enforce the lockout period in the secure enclave hardware so this is no longer something Apple could even possibly assist with. You mean in the sillicon itself? If it's done in the Secure Enclave's firmware then Apple could assist with unlocking.

kbolino 2y ago
I would think that the secure enclave controls the device (un-)locking process and also wouldn't install OTA firmware updates nor accept commands from USB-connected peripherals while the device is locked.
- altairprime 2y ago
  Settings > Passcode > Allow access when locked: [_] Accessories. Off by default, providing a one hour timeout since last phone unlock; or instantly, upon biometric rejection or after holding power-volume-up to reach the power off menu. Macs are typically enabling an equivalent to this by default as well now, as of the latest macOS update.
MBCook 2y ago
That’s what I meant by this: > …sign tampered with firmware that would allow the decryption without user authorization. Apple wrote the firmware for everything. I assume they could write firmware to not need authorization, embedded in a copy of iOS, and sign everything so it could be installed on a phone through DFU. They have been unwilling to do so. I think they’re right not to. But I suspect it is technically possible.
- tmottabr 2y ago
  But if court ordered then to do so they would have to.. In the previous case law enforcement retracted the request because they found an alternative.. If the alternative stop working i bet you they will go after Apple in courts again..
  - wobfan 2y ago
    There have been multiple credible sources with internal documents claiming that iPhone with the current firmware (>17) can’t be hacked currently. It’s in constant flux, obviously, but iOS is very advanced on this aspect. Android phones on the other hand, apart from the Pixels >6, are all hackable with appropriate tooling.
    - fsflover 2y ago
      > multiple credible sources with internal documents claiming that iPhone with the current firmware (>17) can’t be hacked currently You can't prove a negative.
    - tmottabr 2y ago
      As far as i remember there is a single leaked document about a specific celebrite version that had iOS 17 marked as already supported for some devices up to version 17.0.3, versions 17.1 to 17.3.1 as coming soon and 17.4 as in research.. And that document is from last April, 7 months ago, no one really knows how things progressed after that.. Best assumption to make is that all those versions are supported by now.. support for iOS 18 could be available or not, we do not know.. So again i will assume it is supported until the opposite is proved.. But all the latest iPhones in latest iOS versions were only supported in AFU, that apple is handling with this reset feature, or IPR, that require USB being unlocked and is extremely time sensitive as there are already defenses in place..
adastra22 2y ago
The whole point of a Secure Enclave is that you can’t perform such an update without wiping the data.
- HHad3 2y ago
  You can update SEP firmware, but only by providing your PIN. This is why iOS prompts for you PIN again before updating. This still effectively prevents Apple from adding backdoor to be installed on phones the user can no longer access.
  - adastra22 2y ago
    Depends on the enclave. I don't know Apple's, but the ones I worked with would wipe secure data on a firmware update.

tssva 2y ago

The case you reference did not involve a subpoena but an order under the All Writs Act. Annorder which compelled certain behaviour unless the order was appealed within a specified time. Apple appealed the order within that time period and thus was in full compliance with the order. The government withdrew the case before the courts could rule whether the order was legal. I assume Apple would have complied with it if it was ruled so. What we do know from this case is that Apple did attempt to assist the FBI with accessing the phone even without a court compelling them to do so.