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You can experience that emotion and then logic your way to "it probably doesn't make sense then to vote for massive tariffs." If you don't logic your way to tha

You can experience that emotion and then logic your way to "it probably doesn't make sense then to vote for massive tariffs." If you don't logic your way to that next point, then yeah, you're making a bit of an emotionally-tainted decision.

tarsinge 2y ago
Except voting for massive tariffs make sense from an environmental and workers point of view. Logic instead of emotions was lacking in the democrats camp too.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  Massive tariffs will drive up costs and lead to worldwide economic instability. It didn’t work in 1929 and it’s not going to work in 2025.
  - tarsinge 2y ago
    But driving up the costs is a good thing in the big picture because negative externalities are artificially suppressed, the environmental, social and geopolitical cost of having cheap electronics and crap from China is way more high than anticipated. 1929 was another world, and economists have yet to update their view to the 21st century, GDP only is not the end goal.
    - llamaimperative 2y ago
      This is not the bargain people made in voting for Trump.
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      I didn't realize a vote for Trump was a vote for selfless austerity. Macro-economics is hard, but seizing up world trade is one well known easy way to ignite an actual depression, not just the kind-of-but-not-really recession we had under Biden.
  - normalaccess 2y ago
    I'm ok with this because it's going to keep American money in America. The cheep prices we are used to are fueled by slave labor. That Chinese hammer that is $5 less at wal-mart was produced in a sweat shop by underpaid and overworked workers. The tariffs level the playing field and allow us to afford to produce goods at home by effectively banning slave goods. Besides, when you produce local its better for the environment because you're not sending everything on massive cargo ships.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  > make sense from an environmental and workers point of view from an environmental point of view, yes, by reducing consumption; but that's not why people voted for Trump -- they did because they thought it would lower their prices at the supermarket. it won't do that.
pfannkuchen 2y ago
Manufacturing jobs in the past paid much better than the sort of jobs that people in the rust belt are doing more often today. If we assume that the manufacturing increase we would inevitably see in the presence of protectionist tariffs end up in those same places, then that would help make food and other things more affordable for those people. Whether manufacturing ends up there or elsewhere is of course not actually guaranteed, the shipping technology and environmental laws were very different when the old manufacturing centers were established. I don’t understand why people are so quick to conclude that others are very, very stupid in this case, as opposed to having interests that don’t align with one’s own and which are difficult to relate to absent the sorts of multi generational experiences these people have had.
- llamaimperative 2y ago
  You’re the only one making assumptions here. You have no clue what my interests are or my background is. Assumption 1: That Americans want those manufacturing jobs 2: Those manufacturing jobs still exist and are not simply automated away 3: People will still want to buy those goods at 30-1000% higher price points 4: That the onshoring of the lowest-quality jobs on the planet will pay enough to overcome the new inflated prices of everyday goods I assume that people don't know what they're talking about on this subject because 100% of people I’ve seen defending the policy make dumb arguments, while approximately every single economist on the planet argues the opposite.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  Not saying they're stupid but that they're easily misled. Manufacturing jobs are not coming back to the US in large quantities. Period. Even if you apply tariffs to force large companies to leave China, they'll go to other countries -- India, Vietnam, etc. The one thing that might work is to provide huge tax incentives to entice foreign companies to build factories in the US -- but that has proven to have limited effect -- remember Foxconn supposed huge investment in a factory in the US? The only place this _might_ work is in high-end chips, such as TSMC -- but those are not the "manufacturing jobs" in Ohio and PA that disappeared. But mostly, the manufacturing jobs won't come back because companies are rushing to replace them with machines as quickly as possible. So sure, a factory might open in the US, but it won't employ many people.

tarsinge 2y ago

Except voting for massive tariffs make sense from an environmental and workers point of view. Logic instead of emotions was lacking in the democrats camp too.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago
Massive tariffs will drive up costs and lead to worldwide economic instability. It didn’t work in 1929 and it’s not going to work in 2025.
- tarsinge 2y ago
  But driving up the costs is a good thing in the big picture because negative externalities are artificially suppressed, the environmental, social and geopolitical cost of having cheap electronics and crap from China is way more high than anticipated. 1929 was another world, and economists have yet to update their view to the 21st century, GDP only is not the end goal.
  - llamaimperative 2y ago
    This is not the bargain people made in voting for Trump.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    I didn't realize a vote for Trump was a vote for selfless austerity. Macro-economics is hard, but seizing up world trade is one well known easy way to ignite an actual depression, not just the kind-of-but-not-really recession we had under Biden.
- normalaccess 2y ago
  I'm ok with this because it's going to keep American money in America. The cheep prices we are used to are fueled by slave labor. That Chinese hammer that is $5 less at wal-mart was produced in a sweat shop by underpaid and overworked workers. The tariffs level the playing field and allow us to afford to produce goods at home by effectively banning slave goods. Besides, when you produce local its better for the environment because you're not sending everything on massive cargo ships.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
> make sense from an environmental and workers point of view from an environmental point of view, yes, by reducing consumption; but that's not why people voted for Trump -- they did because they thought it would lower their prices at the supermarket. it won't do that.

pfannkuchen 2y ago

Manufacturing jobs in the past paid much better than the sort of jobs that people in the rust belt are doing more often today. If we assume that the manufacturing increase we would inevitably see in the presence of protectionist tariffs end up in those same places, then that would help make food and other things more affordable for those people. Whether manufacturing ends up there or elsewhere is of course not actually guaranteed, the shipping technology and environmental laws were very different when the old manufacturing centers were established. I don’t understand why people are so quick to conclude that others are very, very stupid in this case, as opposed to having interests that don’t align with one’s own and which are difficult to relate to absent the sorts of multi generational experiences these people have had.

llamaimperative 2y ago
You’re the only one making assumptions here. You have no clue what my interests are or my background is. Assumption 1: That Americans want those manufacturing jobs 2: Those manufacturing jobs still exist and are not simply automated away 3: People will still want to buy those goods at 30-1000% higher price points 4: That the onshoring of the lowest-quality jobs on the planet will pay enough to overcome the new inflated prices of everyday goods I assume that people don't know what they're talking about on this subject because 100% of people I’ve seen defending the policy make dumb arguments, while approximately every single economist on the planet argues the opposite.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
insane_dreamer 2y ago
Not saying they're stupid but that they're easily misled. Manufacturing jobs are not coming back to the US in large quantities. Period. Even if you apply tariffs to force large companies to leave China, they'll go to other countries -- India, Vietnam, etc. The one thing that might work is to provide huge tax incentives to entice foreign companies to build factories in the US -- but that has proven to have limited effect -- remember Foxconn supposed huge investment in a factory in the US? The only place this _might_ work is in high-end chips, such as TSMC -- but those are not the "manufacturing jobs" in Ohio and PA that disappeared. But mostly, the manufacturing jobs won't come back because companies are rushing to replace them with machines as quickly as possible. So sure, a factory might open in the US, but it won't employ many people.