5 ms·

> Women's healthcare isn't an issue that resonates with young (read: unmarried) men Disclaimer: I'm Canadian, not American, so my opinions don't matter. I'm

> Women's healthcare isn't an issue that resonates with young (read: unmarried) men Disclaimer: I'm Canadian, not American, so my opinions don't matter. I'm married with two daughters who are in their early 20s. The abortion issue has come up in my household when discussing Trump v Kamala, but the thing that the Democrats didn't seem to get is that even though it's something that my wife & daughters care about in the abstract, it's not a PRESSING matter for them because they're not planning on needing an abortion ever, let alone any time soon. That doesn't mean that they aren't pro choice & don't want women's reproductive rights protected at the federal level, like it is here in Canada. But on the hierarchy of things that matter to them today, it is extremely far down on the list. What matters to them most right now is the economy and rising crime rates. The right wing also spun it as "why on earth do the Democrats think that every single woman is dying to murder her unborn baby?" And while us pro-choicers don't look at it that way, I think that kind of worked as a reminder that while it's an issue, it's just not the most important one affecting their day to day lives at the moment.

_ph_ 2y ago
The problem is, even when there is never the plan of having an abortion, healthcare support for women suffers greatly from the abortion plans. Because it gets legally problematic for doctors to provide healthcare for women. Sooner or later you will have a patient with a medical emergency during a pregnancy. There are already enough incidents where critical ill women don't get medical treatment because they also are pregnant.
- cassepipe 2y ago
  While I agree with you I think you are missing the point made by parent which is seems to me that it's not a psychologically pressing issue. It still seems wild to me because I don't share that psychology but am probably biased because I live in a place with a social safety net and most criminals don't have access to guns here so crime is less scary to me : Muggings are rare probably because it's not very profitable and is more of desperate/drug-addict thing. Being a drug dealer seems much more profitable and I don't feel targeted as a person. Shootings remain rare
  - _ph_ 2y ago
    And I was trying to make the point that it already is a pressing problem for any woman living in those states and of course any male who feels attached to them. Because medical support for women of any age is strongly decreasing.
  - gspencley 2y ago
    > and most criminals don't have access to guns here so crime is less scary to me I'm the parent and you did an excellent job of clarifying what I was trying to say. I do want to respond to this statement, however, since I'm Canadian and in one of those countries where abortion is federally protected (and Canadians strongly favour that across partisan lines for the most part) and I live in what used to be one of the safest cities in Canada. 10 - 20 years ago, homicide was virtually unheard of in our city. I mean, it was like a once in a decade event and almost always domestic violence. Today, we can't go a week without hearing about another stabbing or shooting that happened out in public. Recently our street saw every single vehicle broken into, including ours. We all filed police reports but no one ever showed up or even gave us a follow up call. The message was clear: the police either don't have the capacity or just don't care to deal with certain crimes now. To contrast, I remember my house being broken into when I was around 13 or 14 years-old, so mid 1990s, and I remember watching the detective powder the windows for prints. Times have changed here in scary ways. We pay the same taxes and have the same expectations of our government as we always did. Canadians value the social safety nets and gun regulations that we have. The problem is that those don't seem to be working as well as they used to. We earn less due to inflation, pay the same or higher taxes, and get less in return. Most of us know of people who travel to the USA for health care due to our long waiting lists while hearing from Americans how great our free health care is.
    - bryanlarsen 2y ago
      What city is this? Toronto metro homicides have been ~100 per year for the last 50 years despite Toronto metro population skyrocketing. Basically all Canadian cities show the same pattern.
      - 2y ago
dfxm12 2y ago
rising crime rates. What can you do about a low information voter? they're not planning on needing an abortion ever, let alone any time soon. People rarely plan to get an abortion. Setting that aside, more than anything, from a political perspective, this is an issue about freedom. I'm not planning on buying a firearm any time soon, but I wouldn't support a firearm ban (and thankfully, I don't have to worry about this because no mainstream politician is running on this policy). It doesn't matter what your thoughts about abortion are, women should have the freedom to have autonomy over themselves. Also, the anti-abortion laws are also preventing women from getting medicine for treating some chronic disease.
- gspencley 2y ago
  > What can you do about a low information voter? I already explained this in another reply, but while crime rates might be going down across the board, I'm talking about what my daughters, my wife and their friends are telling me. And they are not low information voters, because crime rates are sky rocketing in our area and the data supports that. We live in what used to be considered one of the safest cities in all of Canada, and now we hear about a new shooting or stabbing in public just about every week. Mostly drug and gang related. Everything else you said, especially about the abortion issue being a freedom issue, is preaching to the choir. I agree with you. I'm talking about the mindset of my wife, my daughters and their friends and what they say matters to them.
- ImJamal 2y ago
  > What can you do about a low information voter? Crime has increased in the US. The official numbers were wrong and were recently corrected, instead of dropping by 2% they actually increased by over 4%. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41859346 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41859346 This is something that the average person saw. The only people who didn't were in a bubble.
  - dfxm12 2y ago
    The article you're linking to makes claims about FBI data, but its only evidence are links to and images created from another website [0], and not the FBI data it is referencing. Further, following the link, the site claims "the data is here" and links only to self hosted excel files and not to the referenced FBI data. 0 - A website which happens to have a conservative bias and has failed several fact checks according to Media Bias/Fact Check: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/crime-prevention-research-center/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/crime-prevention-research-cen...
otikik 2y ago
It has never been about it being "pressing", or even about ideology. It's about cold, calculated electoral math. Abortion is what's called a Wedge Issue[1]. It is so because the public opinion on the US is divided roughtly 50% for it and 50% against it. On top of that, the US presidential election is a First-past-the-post[2] system. So if I manage to get 52% of the votes and you only get 48%, I win everything, you lose everything. You can probably imagine where this is going: Instead of convincing 51% of the people I only need to convince 3% of the indecisive, and I win. Finally, the US is a very polarized country. The "other" is always bad, "we" are always good. So the wedge issues tend to "align". If you and I agree on abortion, we will probably also agree in most of the other wedge issues. All of these factors together result in that both Democrats and Republicans are forced to "optimize", so their campaigns all revolve around the same wedge issues. They must, if they want to win. If you ask me, the least complex way to get the country out of this rut would be changing the voting system to something other First Past The Post. Unfortunately, the people who are in a position to make such a change are the least motivated to make it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_issue [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting
vel0city 2y ago
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- blub 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - vel0city 2y ago
    Funny you mention contraception here, that's another thing the GOP is openly talking about making more difficult for people to access. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/thomas-wants-supreme-court-overturn-landmark-rulings-legalized-contrac-rcna35228 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/thomas-wants-... Even then, no contraception is 100% effective. The only 100% effective thing is abstinence. Just like getting into a car accident, the only way to not have any risk is to not get in the car. But good luck living in the US without getting in a car or being around moving cars. I'm just pointing out the reality of their choices. They're acting like the only people who get a D&C are people who planned to get one before they were even pregnant. Most people who get this kind of care don't go into it planning on doing it. It's like thinking people planned to break their legs or planned to get cancer.
    - itsoktocry 2y ago
      >Funny you mention contraception here, that's another thing the GOP is openly talking about making more difficult for people to access. Buddy, we are long past believing NBC's interpretation of a complicated legal ruling. Your guys have been scare mongering for way too long. Believe it or not, there are lots of sensible conservatives.
      - vel0city 2y ago
        > In future cases, we should reconsider all of this Court’s substantive due process precedents, including Griswold, Lawrence, and Obergefell Buddy, if you can't understand what these very direct words mean I don't know what to tell you. This isn't some "NBC interpretation of a complicated legal ruling", he's openly and directly saying these decisions should be overturned. He is directly stating we should reconsider contraception access, throwing gay people in prison for being gay, and recognizing gay marriage. The modern GOP is openly talking about repealing the court decisions which legalized wide access to contraception, disallowed throwing people in prison for being gay, and requiring states to recognize gay marriage. This isn't some fringe conspiracy theory or complicated legal ruling fear mongering, its directly what they're saying. Quit burying your head in the sand and listen to what your own party is actually saying.
meowfly 2y ago
You are capturing why I think abortion is a good wedge issue but a poor campaign issue. * Men aren't directly affected by it (~50% population) * Woman over 40 aren't generally affected by it So woman between 18-40 who can vote are the group most affected by abortion policy. And as you point out, even they aren't directly affected until they actually need one. So the skin-in-the-game for most people is very low. Most people vote and are opinionated on it as a sort of proxy for woman's rights. However, some issues like house affordability, crime, employment, etc are very high for skin-in-the-game. People are currently affected or know people currently affected by these issues.
- vel0city 2y ago
  I would absolutely be affected by my wife dying from something which should be preventable but has been made pretty much illegal. I would absolutely be affected by my friend dying from something which should be preventable but has been made pretty much illegal. I am not an 18-40 woman and I am affected by the abortion policies in my state.
  - meowfly 2y ago
    So your response confirms why I called it a wedge issue. Most Americans don't like abortion laws the don't take into account the health of the mother. So that type of law becomes a wedge among Republicans. Conversely, if a state passes a six week ban (Florida), that's going to draw out these distinctions among Democrats. I'm not making a moral claim. I'm commenting on the politics of campaigning on it. I think politicians are advantaged at avoiding wedge issues and focusing on material concerns that affect the most people.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      > don't like abortion laws the don't take into account the health of the mother. Texas's law allegedly takes into account the life of the mother. And yet mothers are dying because of this law. When you make it that the OB office needs to have the legal team on speed dial to make sure they're not facing life in prison on a regular life or death healthcare your law is abhorrent policy. The politics of campaigning on it is to make people think only unplanned pregnancies are affected by these laws. I am making a moral claim on that; it's reprehensible.
tayo42 2y ago
> they're not planning on needing an abortion ever, let alone any time soon. Accidents happen. Do they not have sex ever?

_ph_ 2y ago

The problem is, even when there is never the plan of having an abortion, healthcare support for women suffers greatly from the abortion plans. Because it gets legally problematic for doctors to provide healthcare for women. Sooner or later you will have a patient with a medical emergency during a pregnancy. There are already enough incidents where critical ill women don't get medical treatment because they also are pregnant.

cassepipe 2y ago
While I agree with you I think you are missing the point made by parent which is seems to me that it's not a psychologically pressing issue. It still seems wild to me because I don't share that psychology but am probably biased because I live in a place with a social safety net and most criminals don't have access to guns here so crime is less scary to me : Muggings are rare probably because it's not very profitable and is more of desperate/drug-addict thing. Being a drug dealer seems much more profitable and I don't feel targeted as a person. Shootings remain rare
- _ph_ 2y ago
  And I was trying to make the point that it already is a pressing problem for any woman living in those states and of course any male who feels attached to them. Because medical support for women of any age is strongly decreasing.
- gspencley 2y ago
  > and most criminals don't have access to guns here so crime is less scary to me I'm the parent and you did an excellent job of clarifying what I was trying to say. I do want to respond to this statement, however, since I'm Canadian and in one of those countries where abortion is federally protected (and Canadians strongly favour that across partisan lines for the most part) and I live in what used to be one of the safest cities in Canada. 10 - 20 years ago, homicide was virtually unheard of in our city. I mean, it was like a once in a decade event and almost always domestic violence. Today, we can't go a week without hearing about another stabbing or shooting that happened out in public. Recently our street saw every single vehicle broken into, including ours. We all filed police reports but no one ever showed up or even gave us a follow up call. The message was clear: the police either don't have the capacity or just don't care to deal with certain crimes now. To contrast, I remember my house being broken into when I was around 13 or 14 years-old, so mid 1990s, and I remember watching the detective powder the windows for prints. Times have changed here in scary ways. We pay the same taxes and have the same expectations of our government as we always did. Canadians value the social safety nets and gun regulations that we have. The problem is that those don't seem to be working as well as they used to. We earn less due to inflation, pay the same or higher taxes, and get less in return. Most of us know of people who travel to the USA for health care due to our long waiting lists while hearing from Americans how great our free health care is.
  - bryanlarsen 2y ago
    What city is this? Toronto metro homicides have been ~100 per year for the last 50 years despite Toronto metro population skyrocketing. Basically all Canadian cities show the same pattern.
    - 2y ago

dfxm12 2y ago

rising crime rates. What can you do about a low information voter? they're not planning on needing an abortion ever, let alone any time soon. People rarely plan to get an abortion. Setting that aside, more than anything, from a political perspective, this is an issue about freedom. I'm not planning on buying a firearm any time soon, but I wouldn't support a firearm ban (and thankfully, I don't have to worry about this because no mainstream politician is running on this policy). It doesn't matter what your thoughts about abortion are, women should have the freedom to have autonomy over themselves. Also, the anti-abortion laws are also preventing women from getting medicine for treating some chronic disease.

gspencley 2y ago
> What can you do about a low information voter? I already explained this in another reply, but while crime rates might be going down across the board, I'm talking about what my daughters, my wife and their friends are telling me. And they are not low information voters, because crime rates are sky rocketing in our area and the data supports that. We live in what used to be considered one of the safest cities in all of Canada, and now we hear about a new shooting or stabbing in public just about every week. Mostly drug and gang related. Everything else you said, especially about the abortion issue being a freedom issue, is preaching to the choir. I agree with you. I'm talking about the mindset of my wife, my daughters and their friends and what they say matters to them.
ImJamal 2y ago
> What can you do about a low information voter? Crime has increased in the US. The official numbers were wrong and were recently corrected, instead of dropping by 2% they actually increased by over 4%. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41859346 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41859346 This is something that the average person saw. The only people who didn't were in a bubble.
- dfxm12 2y ago
  The article you're linking to makes claims about FBI data, but its only evidence are links to and images created from another website [0], and not the FBI data it is referencing. Further, following the link, the site claims "the data is here" and links only to self hosted excel files and not to the referenced FBI data. 0 - A website which happens to have a conservative bias and has failed several fact checks according to Media Bias/Fact Check: https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/crime-prevention-research-center/ https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/crime-prevention-research-cen...

otikik 2y ago

It has never been about it being "pressing", or even about ideology. It's about cold, calculated electoral math. Abortion is what's called a Wedge Issue[1]. It is so because the public opinion on the US is divided roughtly 50% for it and 50% against it. On top of that, the US presidential election is a First-past-the-post[2] system. So if I manage to get 52% of the votes and you only get 48%, I win everything, you lose everything. You can probably imagine where this is going: Instead of convincing 51% of the people I only need to convince 3% of the indecisive, and I win. Finally, the US is a very polarized country. The "other" is always bad, "we" are always good. So the wedge issues tend to "align". If you and I agree on abortion, we will probably also agree in most of the other wedge issues. All of these factors together result in that both Democrats and Republicans are forced to "optimize", so their campaigns all revolve around the same wedge issues. They must, if they want to win. If you ask me, the least complex way to get the country out of this rut would be changing the voting system to something other First Past The Post. Unfortunately, the people who are in a position to make such a change are the least motivated to make it. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_issue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_issue [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-past-the-post_voting

vel0city 2y ago

[flagged]

blub 2y ago
[flagged]
- vel0city 2y ago
  Funny you mention contraception here, that's another thing the GOP is openly talking about making more difficult for people to access. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/thomas-wants-supreme-court-overturn-landmark-rulings-legalized-contrac-rcna35228 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/thomas-wants-... Even then, no contraception is 100% effective. The only 100% effective thing is abstinence. Just like getting into a car accident, the only way to not have any risk is to not get in the car. But good luck living in the US without getting in a car or being around moving cars. I'm just pointing out the reality of their choices. They're acting like the only people who get a D&C are people who planned to get one before they were even pregnant. Most people who get this kind of care don't go into it planning on doing it. It's like thinking people planned to break their legs or planned to get cancer.
  - itsoktocry 2y ago
    >Funny you mention contraception here, that's another thing the GOP is openly talking about making more difficult for people to access. Buddy, we are long past believing NBC's interpretation of a complicated legal ruling. Your guys have been scare mongering for way too long. Believe it or not, there are lots of sensible conservatives.
    - vel0city 2y ago
      > In future cases, we should reconsider all of this Court’s substantive due process precedents, including Griswold, Lawrence, and Obergefell Buddy, if you can't understand what these very direct words mean I don't know what to tell you. This isn't some "NBC interpretation of a complicated legal ruling", he's openly and directly saying these decisions should be overturned. He is directly stating we should reconsider contraception access, throwing gay people in prison for being gay, and recognizing gay marriage. The modern GOP is openly talking about repealing the court decisions which legalized wide access to contraception, disallowed throwing people in prison for being gay, and requiring states to recognize gay marriage. This isn't some fringe conspiracy theory or complicated legal ruling fear mongering, its directly what they're saying. Quit burying your head in the sand and listen to what your own party is actually saying.

meowfly 2y ago

You are capturing why I think abortion is a good wedge issue but a poor campaign issue. * Men aren't directly affected by it (~50% population) * Woman over 40 aren't generally affected by it So woman between 18-40 who can vote are the group most affected by abortion policy. And as you point out, even they aren't directly affected until they actually need one. So the skin-in-the-game for most people is very low. Most people vote and are opinionated on it as a sort of proxy for woman's rights. However, some issues like house affordability, crime, employment, etc are very high for skin-in-the-game. People are currently affected or know people currently affected by these issues.

vel0city 2y ago
I would absolutely be affected by my wife dying from something which should be preventable but has been made pretty much illegal. I would absolutely be affected by my friend dying from something which should be preventable but has been made pretty much illegal. I am not an 18-40 woman and I am affected by the abortion policies in my state.
- meowfly 2y ago
  So your response confirms why I called it a wedge issue. Most Americans don't like abortion laws the don't take into account the health of the mother. So that type of law becomes a wedge among Republicans. Conversely, if a state passes a six week ban (Florida), that's going to draw out these distinctions among Democrats. I'm not making a moral claim. I'm commenting on the politics of campaigning on it. I think politicians are advantaged at avoiding wedge issues and focusing on material concerns that affect the most people.
  - vel0city 2y ago
    > don't like abortion laws the don't take into account the health of the mother. Texas's law allegedly takes into account the life of the mother. And yet mothers are dying because of this law. When you make it that the OB office needs to have the legal team on speed dial to make sure they're not facing life in prison on a regular life or death healthcare your law is abhorrent policy. The politics of campaigning on it is to make people think only unplanned pregnancies are affected by these laws. I am making a moral claim on that; it's reprehensible.

tayo42 2y ago

> they're not planning on needing an abortion ever, let alone any time soon. Accidents happen. Do they not have sex ever?