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> Stop calling working people without a college education stupid and stop alienating men. Nobody is calling anyone stupid just because of the lack of education

by abcd_f 2y ago

> Stop calling working people without a college education stupid and stop alienating men. Nobody is calling anyone stupid just because of the lack of education. However the lack of education makes people gullible and easy to manipulate. From bleach as a Covid remedy to marginal tax as a grave danger to working people - you don't have to go far for examples. And when someone does believe this sort of blatant bullshit, then, yeah, they don't come across as particularly bright individuals.

ttoinou 2y ago
Overeducated people are as much manipulable, but in a different way
- TheHypnotist 2y ago
  [flagged]
- slothtrop 2y ago
  I've seen research shared here that suggest that more education scales with more radical political beliefs and overconfidence, for both sides of the spectrum, not just left. So you're right. Though of course more people concentrated in cosmopolitan areas with liberal cultures means more educated people lean left.
nazgulsenpai 2y ago
> Nobody is calling anyone stupid just because of the lack of education. > However the lack of education makes people gullible and easy to manipulate. From bleach as a Covid remedy... You may not realize you said it, but you said it.
- ninkendo 2y ago
  So what is the takeaway here? When referring to trump supporters, follow the line of reasoning: - Trump floated bleach as a covid remedy - Bleach as a covid remedy is obviously stupid (we should both be agreeing on this one) - Trump supporters support such statements from trump - But pointing that out is "calling them stupid" and thus we shouldn't do it? I'm genuinely curious about this because it makes up so many discussions with trump supporters in a nut shell. I don't want to condescend to them, but I also shouldn't be pointing out things that genuinely are stupid about trump, because doing so would offend them too? What should I do, just pretend all the dumb things Trump does (and that his supporters support him for) don't exist? Just so I can find common ground? (I mean, strictly speaking this is exactly what I do in polite company with trump supporters. I just pretend all the really dumb shit doesn't exist and just talk to them about policy and stuff, and in the end I end up finding that we agree on 90% of stuff and we go on our way. And they continue to support trump for reasons I don't understand.)
  - bloopernova 2y ago
    Realize that in most of those conversations, those actions serve to derail. That's intentional, it shuts down any rational discourse.
  - FergusArgyll 2y ago
    A good start would be looking at 3) more closely > Trump supporters support such statements from trump Did you ever meet a Trump supporter who used bleach? Did you ever meet a Trump supporter who thinks bleach for covid is a good idea? If you're being honest with yourself, can you even imagine a middle-aged man drinking bleach to get rid of covid? almost everyone I know voted for Trump, I know a lot of people, none of them ever drank bleach (as I'm writing this, I remembered I know someone who drank bleach as a little kid and had to go to the hospital, my point stands though)
    - ninkendo 2y ago
      > If you're being honest with yourself, can you even imagine a middle-aged man drinking bleach to get rid of covid? Lots of them did. https://www.poison.med.wayne.edu/updates-content/kstytapp2qfstf0pkacdxmz943u1hs https://www.poison.med.wayne.edu/updates-content/kstytapp2qf... But my larger point is that his supporters support such statements. Not that they’re stupid enough to inject bleach (although that did happen.) It’s more that, when bringing up that he even said shit like that, trump supporters get offended that you’re condescending to them. Like, how dare you bring up that thing he actually said. And when I say they support statements like that, it’s because they bend over backwards to find ways to convince themselves that he’s somehow not a lunatic for saying it, trying to find ways of charitably interpreting his drivel. That’s what “support such statements” means.
      - FergusArgyll 2y ago
        You believing that people actually drank bleach and weren't pranking poison control is your choice. > they bend over backwards to find ways to convince themselves that he’s somehow not a lunatic for saying it look, you've probably never listened to more than 5 unfiltered minutes of him speaking [0]. His supporters know he's not a lunatic, we've heard him talk for almost 10 years. Imagine a friend of yours saying something like what he said, actually imagine a normal friend of yours saying it. You wouldn't all of the sudden think he's a lunatic. Your 1st assumption would be "maybe they discussed something to do with one of the chemicals in one type of disinfectant possibly having another use" if that's a little crazy, maybe he's tired or joking or something. Point is, in Bayesian terms, it really depends on your priors. [0] I thought of an interesting exercise: If you commit to listening to his interview on Rogan, I'll listen to an episode of your choice that you think will enlighten me
- effable 2y ago
  But are you arguing that when people believe things that are demonstrably false, like using bleach as a Covid remedy, not because there is any evidence behind them but only because they were uttered by someone they trust wholeheartedly, and this person does not have any hint of medical training, that nobody should say they are stupid, but only quietly believe it in their minds? If not that, then what were you trying to say?
  - selfmodruntime 2y ago
    > But are you arguing that when people believe things that are demonstrably false, like using bleach as a Covid remedy, These are morons you read about in your news bubble. The average American is not like them.
    - Photato 2y ago
      Trump is literally one of these morons and millions voted for him. How would you classify them based on this fact, if not ignorant?
selfmodruntime 2y ago
> Nobody is calling anyone stupid just because of the lack of education. I can find you dozens of examples right now, in the press, from today. That the entire election is the fault of uneducated people.
- eps 2y ago
  Do show mainstream press examples pinning this on stupid people. Not "uneducated", but expressly "stupid".
  - selfmodruntime 2y ago
    Let's not argue words. Other kind labels were deplorables, fascists, Nazis, garbage, sexists, racists, xenophobes and anti-American.
    - eps 2y ago
      Nobody's arguing words. You offered to show "dozens of examples right now, in the press" of Trump voters being called stupid. Apparently there are none.
ars 2y ago
You are calling other people gullible and easy to manipulate, and yet somehow you believe that Trump actually suggested bleach. He didn't. Seems to me you need to look in a mirror.

by abcd_f 2y ago

ttoinou 2y ago

Overeducated people are as much manipulable, but in a different way

TheHypnotist 2y ago
[flagged]
slothtrop 2y ago
I've seen research shared here that suggest that more education scales with more radical political beliefs and overconfidence, for both sides of the spectrum, not just left. So you're right. Though of course more people concentrated in cosmopolitan areas with liberal cultures means more educated people lean left.

nazgulsenpai 2y ago

> Nobody is calling anyone stupid just because of the lack of education. > However the lack of education makes people gullible and easy to manipulate. From bleach as a Covid remedy... You may not realize you said it, but you said it.

ninkendo 2y ago
So what is the takeaway here? When referring to trump supporters, follow the line of reasoning: - Trump floated bleach as a covid remedy - Bleach as a covid remedy is obviously stupid (we should both be agreeing on this one) - Trump supporters support such statements from trump - But pointing that out is "calling them stupid" and thus we shouldn't do it? I'm genuinely curious about this because it makes up so many discussions with trump supporters in a nut shell. I don't want to condescend to them, but I also shouldn't be pointing out things that genuinely are stupid about trump, because doing so would offend them too? What should I do, just pretend all the dumb things Trump does (and that his supporters support him for) don't exist? Just so I can find common ground? (I mean, strictly speaking this is exactly what I do in polite company with trump supporters. I just pretend all the really dumb shit doesn't exist and just talk to them about policy and stuff, and in the end I end up finding that we agree on 90% of stuff and we go on our way. And they continue to support trump for reasons I don't understand.)
- bloopernova 2y ago
  Realize that in most of those conversations, those actions serve to derail. That's intentional, it shuts down any rational discourse.
- FergusArgyll 2y ago
  A good start would be looking at 3) more closely > Trump supporters support such statements from trump Did you ever meet a Trump supporter who used bleach? Did you ever meet a Trump supporter who thinks bleach for covid is a good idea? If you're being honest with yourself, can you even imagine a middle-aged man drinking bleach to get rid of covid? almost everyone I know voted for Trump, I know a lot of people, none of them ever drank bleach (as I'm writing this, I remembered I know someone who drank bleach as a little kid and had to go to the hospital, my point stands though)
  - ninkendo 2y ago
    > If you're being honest with yourself, can you even imagine a middle-aged man drinking bleach to get rid of covid? Lots of them did. https://www.poison.med.wayne.edu/updates-content/kstytapp2qfstf0pkacdxmz943u1hs https://www.poison.med.wayne.edu/updates-content/kstytapp2qf... But my larger point is that his supporters support such statements. Not that they’re stupid enough to inject bleach (although that did happen.) It’s more that, when bringing up that he even said shit like that, trump supporters get offended that you’re condescending to them. Like, how dare you bring up that thing he actually said. And when I say they support statements like that, it’s because they bend over backwards to find ways to convince themselves that he’s somehow not a lunatic for saying it, trying to find ways of charitably interpreting his drivel. That’s what “support such statements” means.
    - FergusArgyll 2y ago
      You believing that people actually drank bleach and weren't pranking poison control is your choice. > they bend over backwards to find ways to convince themselves that he’s somehow not a lunatic for saying it look, you've probably never listened to more than 5 unfiltered minutes of him speaking [0]. His supporters know he's not a lunatic, we've heard him talk for almost 10 years. Imagine a friend of yours saying something like what he said, actually imagine a normal friend of yours saying it. You wouldn't all of the sudden think he's a lunatic. Your 1st assumption would be "maybe they discussed something to do with one of the chemicals in one type of disinfectant possibly having another use" if that's a little crazy, maybe he's tired or joking or something. Point is, in Bayesian terms, it really depends on your priors. [0] I thought of an interesting exercise: If you commit to listening to his interview on Rogan, I'll listen to an episode of your choice that you think will enlighten me
effable 2y ago
But are you arguing that when people believe things that are demonstrably false, like using bleach as a Covid remedy, not because there is any evidence behind them but only because they were uttered by someone they trust wholeheartedly, and this person does not have any hint of medical training, that nobody should say they are stupid, but only quietly believe it in their minds? If not that, then what were you trying to say?
- selfmodruntime 2y ago
  > But are you arguing that when people believe things that are demonstrably false, like using bleach as a Covid remedy, These are morons you read about in your news bubble. The average American is not like them.
  - Photato 2y ago
    Trump is literally one of these morons and millions voted for him. How would you classify them based on this fact, if not ignorant?

selfmodruntime 2y ago

> Nobody is calling anyone stupid just because of the lack of education. I can find you dozens of examples right now, in the press, from today. That the entire election is the fault of uneducated people.

eps 2y ago
Do show mainstream press examples pinning this on stupid people. Not "uneducated", but expressly "stupid".
- selfmodruntime 2y ago
  Let's not argue words. Other kind labels were deplorables, fascists, Nazis, garbage, sexists, racists, xenophobes and anti-American.
  - eps 2y ago
    Nobody's arguing words. You offered to show "dozens of examples right now, in the press" of Trump voters being called stupid. Apparently there are none.

ars 2y ago

You are calling other people gullible and easy to manipulate, and yet somehow you believe that Trump actually suggested bleach. He didn't. Seems to me you need to look in a mirror.