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There is nothing inherently special about Americans that makes them more democratic. I agree we shouldn't compare the U.S. with Middle Eastern countries; they w

There is nothing inherently special about Americans that makes them more democratic. I agree we shouldn't compare the U.S. with Middle Eastern countries; they were never democratic in the first place. A more appropriate comparison would be with the German Weimar Republic, where a charismatic leader managed to overthrow democracy. Many people raised in democratic societies don't fully understand the intricacies of the relationship between the military and dictatorships; they see the military as a tool in the dictator's hand to wield at will. This couldn't be further from the truth. A (strong) military in a dictatorship is its own institution, largely isolated from the rest of society and granted its own perks and benefits. The dictator can wield the military only to the extent that it aligns with the institution's goals. Competent ones try to align the military's goals with their own; incompetent ones get overthrown. Because of this isolation from broader society, the officers and soldiers believe that what is good for the institution is good for the country. They're not suppressing their citizens; they believe they are protecting the republic. The U.S. Army is already operating as an isolated entity from broader U.S. society. Monetary corruption is quite substantial—consider the medium- to high-ranking officers and their relationships and revolving doors with defense contractors. I'm not saying the U.S. is going to become -insert non-democratic country here-, but if we ignore the usual Western caricature of Stalinist-style dictatorships and realize that there are multiple forms of eroding democracy, you'll start to understand why it's not such a far-fetched idea.

codersfocus 2y ago
[flagged]
- beepbooptheory 2y ago
  There was that whole civil war thing that happened. And it didn't even matter who won this election, it's clear we are very driven by us/them thinking just considering alone how much purchase you have as a politician when you promise to deport people. If you are looking at the breadth of history, you would be much more justified in saying that "struggle" and even "violence" is what makes things happen or not. There are political formations, disruptions, rifts, responding to endogenous and external factors. There is now also the extra-political force of capital which is a big player. What you see, or what you desire, is the so-called "End of History". Where all things are just variations parliamentary-democratic struggle, where in fact globalism is the very thing that assures you of the USA's (very broad) stability. You can allow for a superficial rollercoaster of politics, just insofar as you truly believe (and I bet you do) there is a trajectory and it is good. Good ole' USA. Its very much like believing either that the world is just 200 years old (again, that whole civil war thing was a big deal), or that we are in a kind Groundhogs Day decade (of the 90s). I could say a lot, but ultimately I envy you and the world you live in. I understand how it can really sustain you. I hope at least you don't live long enough to see your worldview shattered. You don't, truly, deserve that. Noone does.
- mbs159 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 2y ago
    Please don't respond by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- xregnarpurex 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - dudefeliciano 2y ago
    today everything feels like a joke, i also thought americans had more common sense and values than this.
    - mettamage 2y ago
      Reading the comments, I think the value that they have is: charisma. Another comment wrote about Paul Graham's essay. You like 'em, you vote 'em into power. It is what it is.
      - RealityVoid 2y ago
        Ok, sure, I can bite the argument charisma matter. I just don't see how Trump is charismatic in any way. He's a spoiled rich kid that throws tantrums when things don't go his way.
        mrcptthrowaway 2y ago
        Not grandparent but I have an idea. First of all, that's how you see it. That's how I see it. But what about someone else? This comment is going to be a bit rough as I'm going to play act a lot to really drive my point home. I remember talking to my carpenter friend. He told me he voted for someone like Trump in my country. I asked him why. My issue with the local politician where I'm from is that he puts all Islamic people into one bucket: the stupid one. I think that's crazy and unfair. He does it with more things. I think his policies are stupid whenever I hear them. My carpenter friend and I go way back. We met each other when I was 7 and he was 9. He was part of a dizygotic twin. We haven't spoken to each other in 4 years and just vaguely kept in touch. When he told me that he voted on that bullshit person of a politician, I asked why and he's like: "he's charismatic!" The thing is. I know this carpenter friend. He might be a lot older but I know him emotionally. He hasn't changed a bit, he just got more mature. But underneath, whenever I see someone from my elementary school, I still see the same child. I also think they still see me that way, that's the impression I get. The charisma doesn't come as much from that our crazy local politician is actually charismatic. It comes more from the fact that - if I had to guess - from his perspective: politics is boring as hell. It's crazy boring! Why bother! Yea, yea, right to vote. Fine. Fine. He'll vote. Fine. But if he'll vote. Why not have some fun? Why not vote for someone that wants to throw a bit of a ruckus eh? Why not vote for someone that talks in a way that he talks, that thinks in a way he thinks, that cares about his issues. What are these Islamic people doing here anyway? It's uncomfortable (note: I think this is dumb as hell, I'm just paining a picture - Islamic people should feel comfortable where I live because in my view they are the same nationality as I am). So in my carpenter's friend mind, this local politician has some charisma. Does he have the best charisma? Don't know but definitely some. What do other politicians sound like? Nuance 1, nuance 2, policy x, policy y, blah, blah, blah, BORING! I wish it wasn't as childish as this but I know my friend. It is. He just wants to go to his carpenting job, make something beautiful, be with his wife and kids and call it a day. Thinking for him, like thinking deeply. That's painful. He can do it, but he sure as hell doesn't like it. He likes to do things with his hands. When I emotionally understood I was shocked. I live in a village close to a big city. I know this village, I grew up here. I'm the odd one out, the intellectual. But I know how "these people from the village think". And my carpenter friend is a very average person in it. So suddenly I realized, this is how many people in my village think. My suspicion is that something similar happens with Trump. However, with some differences such as: he's a business man! He tells it like it is! We don't take no shit from some ippity uppity democrats! Why should we?! Don't tell me what to do! I will do what I want to do! And all these immigrants are taking our jobs! That's not okay! Trump tells the truth. Again, I think, that such type of thinking is the dumbest thing ever. Nor do I think that every Trump supporter thinks like this. But there are Americans that think like my carpenter friend. And my suspicion is that they think like this. From that perspective, it's clear to see why Trump has charisma. Because (1) he talks at their level, (2) he talks about their issues and (3) he's a successful business man. I know we can both make arguments that (1), (2) and (3) aren't true. But dude, remember, for them, thinking is fucking painful. I'm sure there are more archetypes/personalities that have backgrounds and contexts as to why they find Trump charismatic.
- juahan 2y ago
  This is the weirdest thing I have read in a while. I can name multiple more democratic countries, for example starting with the Nordic countries. Just having a multi party system goes far in this comparison.
  - codersfocus 2y ago
    If you were going to give an example, Switzerland would have been a good one. But they have elements of exactly what I'm talking about, considering there are French, Italian, German quarters of the country. Nordics have only recently become democracies, <100 years ago. To clarify, the context of the discussion was the resiliency of democracy, not some dick measuring contest of which country is presently more democratic.
    - palata 2y ago
      > There are many aspects of America that make it uniquely more democratic than any other country could possibly be. Now I'm curious: how is America uniquely more democratic than Switzerland could possibly be?
- SturgeonsLaw 2y ago
  > There are many aspects of America that make it uniquely more democratic than any other country could possibly be. Including how the presidential election is decided by 538 appointed political insiders? Is that really more democratic than any other country? These people can, and have previously, overruled the votes of the population.
prepend 2y ago
> A more appropriate comparison would be with the German Weimar Republic, where a charismatic leader managed to overthrow democracy This doesn't resonate to me. The conditions in the US are so different than the German Weimar Republic. I mean sure it's possible but without a compelling reason I kind of discard those arguments. The US has had lots of charismatic leaders screwing stuff up and yet still survived. More importantly, American Exceptionalism is deeply ingrained in our philosophy. I think we're wrong, but it exists. So the general populace doesn't believe this stuff and just makes people sound out of touch. I think when someone is thinking about inflation and rent and mortgages, the idea that they should care about an existential threat to democracy doesn't seem to matter much. That's a rich person's worry.
sensanaty 2y ago
Comparisons to Weimar Germany are ridiculous because the state of the two countries are vastly, VASTLY different. Nevermind the fact that we're also in a different, much more interconnected and mixed world than back then. On the one hand you have a once-proud and powerful state recovering from the most devastating war humanity has ever waged (by that point) that it lost in, which subsequently forced them into paying back massive reparations, sanctions and economic and military limits imposed on it by the victors of said war. Of course a charismatic, populist leader who gives the resentful nation a boogeyman to fight against is going to win. On the other you have the de facto #1 world power with the most cartoonishly powerful military on the planet that has their fingers involved in every single pie on the planet, which was founded on the principle of democracy some 200 years ago, with strong safeguards put in place to prevent the exact thing that happened with the Weimar republic. Even pretending like the Weimer Republic's military was anything even resembling what the US military is is ridiculous.
- palata 2y ago
  > On the other you have the de facto #1 world power Wasn't always the case, and honestly it's hard to tell where China stands right now, and it seems like it's not slowing down... if you look at e.g. robotics or drones... > which was founded on the principle of democracy some 200 years ago Didn't it need a civil war to actually become a democracy? My understanding was that it was not exactly founded as a democracy. But maybe I'm being pedantic there. > with strong safeguards put in place to prevent the exact thing that happened with the Weimar republic. Genuinely interested! What are those safeguards and what do they prevent that happened with the Weimar republic?
  - shkkmo 2y ago
    With the Weimar Republic, it was specifically section 48 of their constitution which granted emergency powers to pass laws and the normalization of its invocation, paired with a dysfuctional legistlative body that was the only check on that power, that allowed the measures to be taken that culminated in probably unconstitutional passage of the Enalbing Act that killed the republic.

codersfocus 2y ago

[flagged]

beepbooptheory 2y ago
There was that whole civil war thing that happened. And it didn't even matter who won this election, it's clear we are very driven by us/them thinking just considering alone how much purchase you have as a politician when you promise to deport people. If you are looking at the breadth of history, you would be much more justified in saying that "struggle" and even "violence" is what makes things happen or not. There are political formations, disruptions, rifts, responding to endogenous and external factors. There is now also the extra-political force of capital which is a big player. What you see, or what you desire, is the so-called "End of History". Where all things are just variations parliamentary-democratic struggle, where in fact globalism is the very thing that assures you of the USA's (very broad) stability. You can allow for a superficial rollercoaster of politics, just insofar as you truly believe (and I bet you do) there is a trajectory and it is good. Good ole' USA. Its very much like believing either that the world is just 200 years old (again, that whole civil war thing was a big deal), or that we are in a kind Groundhogs Day decade (of the 90s). I could say a lot, but ultimately I envy you and the world you live in. I understand how it can really sustain you. I hope at least you don't live long enough to see your worldview shattered. You don't, truly, deserve that. Noone does.
mbs159 2y ago
[flagged]
- dang 2y ago
  Please don't respond by breaking the site guidelines yourself. That only makes things worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
xregnarpurex 2y ago
[flagged]
- dudefeliciano 2y ago
  today everything feels like a joke, i also thought americans had more common sense and values than this.
  - mettamage 2y ago
    Reading the comments, I think the value that they have is: charisma. Another comment wrote about Paul Graham's essay. You like 'em, you vote 'em into power. It is what it is.
    - RealityVoid 2y ago
      Ok, sure, I can bite the argument charisma matter. I just don't see how Trump is charismatic in any way. He's a spoiled rich kid that throws tantrums when things don't go his way.
      - mrcptthrowaway 2y ago
        Not grandparent but I have an idea. First of all, that's how you see it. That's how I see it. But what about someone else? This comment is going to be a bit rough as I'm going to play act a lot to really drive my point home. I remember talking to my carpenter friend. He told me he voted for someone like Trump in my country. I asked him why. My issue with the local politician where I'm from is that he puts all Islamic people into one bucket: the stupid one. I think that's crazy and unfair. He does it with more things. I think his policies are stupid whenever I hear them. My carpenter friend and I go way back. We met each other when I was 7 and he was 9. He was part of a dizygotic twin. We haven't spoken to each other in 4 years and just vaguely kept in touch. When he told me that he voted on that bullshit person of a politician, I asked why and he's like: "he's charismatic!" The thing is. I know this carpenter friend. He might be a lot older but I know him emotionally. He hasn't changed a bit, he just got more mature. But underneath, whenever I see someone from my elementary school, I still see the same child. I also think they still see me that way, that's the impression I get. The charisma doesn't come as much from that our crazy local politician is actually charismatic. It comes more from the fact that - if I had to guess - from his perspective: politics is boring as hell. It's crazy boring! Why bother! Yea, yea, right to vote. Fine. Fine. He'll vote. Fine. But if he'll vote. Why not have some fun? Why not vote for someone that wants to throw a bit of a ruckus eh? Why not vote for someone that talks in a way that he talks, that thinks in a way he thinks, that cares about his issues. What are these Islamic people doing here anyway? It's uncomfortable (note: I think this is dumb as hell, I'm just paining a picture - Islamic people should feel comfortable where I live because in my view they are the same nationality as I am). So in my carpenter's friend mind, this local politician has some charisma. Does he have the best charisma? Don't know but definitely some. What do other politicians sound like? Nuance 1, nuance 2, policy x, policy y, blah, blah, blah, BORING! I wish it wasn't as childish as this but I know my friend. It is. He just wants to go to his carpenting job, make something beautiful, be with his wife and kids and call it a day. Thinking for him, like thinking deeply. That's painful. He can do it, but he sure as hell doesn't like it. He likes to do things with his hands. When I emotionally understood I was shocked. I live in a village close to a big city. I know this village, I grew up here. I'm the odd one out, the intellectual. But I know how "these people from the village think". And my carpenter friend is a very average person in it. So suddenly I realized, this is how many people in my village think. My suspicion is that something similar happens with Trump. However, with some differences such as: he's a business man! He tells it like it is! We don't take no shit from some ippity uppity democrats! Why should we?! Don't tell me what to do! I will do what I want to do! And all these immigrants are taking our jobs! That's not okay! Trump tells the truth. Again, I think, that such type of thinking is the dumbest thing ever. Nor do I think that every Trump supporter thinks like this. But there are Americans that think like my carpenter friend. And my suspicion is that they think like this. From that perspective, it's clear to see why Trump has charisma. Because (1) he talks at their level, (2) he talks about their issues and (3) he's a successful business man. I know we can both make arguments that (1), (2) and (3) aren't true. But dude, remember, for them, thinking is fucking painful. I'm sure there are more archetypes/personalities that have backgrounds and contexts as to why they find Trump charismatic.
juahan 2y ago
This is the weirdest thing I have read in a while. I can name multiple more democratic countries, for example starting with the Nordic countries. Just having a multi party system goes far in this comparison.
- codersfocus 2y ago
  If you were going to give an example, Switzerland would have been a good one. But they have elements of exactly what I'm talking about, considering there are French, Italian, German quarters of the country. Nordics have only recently become democracies, <100 years ago. To clarify, the context of the discussion was the resiliency of democracy, not some dick measuring contest of which country is presently more democratic.
  - palata 2y ago
    > There are many aspects of America that make it uniquely more democratic than any other country could possibly be. Now I'm curious: how is America uniquely more democratic than Switzerland could possibly be?
SturgeonsLaw 2y ago
> There are many aspects of America that make it uniquely more democratic than any other country could possibly be. Including how the presidential election is decided by 538 appointed political insiders? Is that really more democratic than any other country? These people can, and have previously, overruled the votes of the population.

prepend 2y ago

> A more appropriate comparison would be with the German Weimar Republic, where a charismatic leader managed to overthrow democracy This doesn't resonate to me. The conditions in the US are so different than the German Weimar Republic. I mean sure it's possible but without a compelling reason I kind of discard those arguments. The US has had lots of charismatic leaders screwing stuff up and yet still survived. More importantly, American Exceptionalism is deeply ingrained in our philosophy. I think we're wrong, but it exists. So the general populace doesn't believe this stuff and just makes people sound out of touch. I think when someone is thinking about inflation and rent and mortgages, the idea that they should care about an existential threat to democracy doesn't seem to matter much. That's a rich person's worry.

sensanaty 2y ago

Comparisons to Weimar Germany are ridiculous because the state of the two countries are vastly, VASTLY different. Nevermind the fact that we're also in a different, much more interconnected and mixed world than back then. On the one hand you have a once-proud and powerful state recovering from the most devastating war humanity has ever waged (by that point) that it lost in, which subsequently forced them into paying back massive reparations, sanctions and economic and military limits imposed on it by the victors of said war. Of course a charismatic, populist leader who gives the resentful nation a boogeyman to fight against is going to win. On the other you have the de facto #1 world power with the most cartoonishly powerful military on the planet that has their fingers involved in every single pie on the planet, which was founded on the principle of democracy some 200 years ago, with strong safeguards put in place to prevent the exact thing that happened with the Weimar republic. Even pretending like the Weimer Republic's military was anything even resembling what the US military is is ridiculous.

palata 2y ago
> On the other you have the de facto #1 world power Wasn't always the case, and honestly it's hard to tell where China stands right now, and it seems like it's not slowing down... if you look at e.g. robotics or drones... > which was founded on the principle of democracy some 200 years ago Didn't it need a civil war to actually become a democracy? My understanding was that it was not exactly founded as a democracy. But maybe I'm being pedantic there. > with strong safeguards put in place to prevent the exact thing that happened with the Weimar republic. Genuinely interested! What are those safeguards and what do they prevent that happened with the Weimar republic?
- shkkmo 2y ago
  With the Weimar Republic, it was specifically section 48 of their constitution which granted emergency powers to pass laws and the normalization of its invocation, paired with a dysfuctional legistlative body that was the only check on that power, that allowed the measures to be taken that culminated in probably unconstitutional passage of the Enalbing Act that killed the republic.