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Why is everyone else responsible but the people responsible? Not calling out fascism is surely just as problematic. Do you have any data (except for interperso

by siffin 2y ago

Why is everyone else responsible but the people responsible? Not calling out fascism is surely just as problematic. Do you have any data (except for interpersonal psychology) on whether letting fascism slide or calling it out ultimately makes the situation worse? At what point do you call fascism fascism? When it's too late?

Jensson 2y ago
> At what point do you call fascism fascism? When it's too late? You call it fascism when it is fascism. Once it is openly fascist then it is probably too late to stop, but you don't call it fascism until it is fascism.
- drawkward 2y ago
  So, only when it is too late can you talk about it?
theonething 2y ago
How exactly is Trump/Republican party fascist?
- spiderfarmer 2y ago
  You could try to answer this yourself by looking up the definition and cross checking it with the rhetoric from the republican party during this campaign.
  - theonething 2y ago
    The burden of proof is with the accuser. I fail to see how the Republican party is fascist. I think it's a term the Left uses to demonize their opposition. Ironically, that is kind of fascist-like. > The term fascist has been used as a pejorative,[74] regarding varying movements across the far right of the political spectrum. George Orwell noted in 1944 that the term had been used to denigrate diverse positions "in internal politics". Orwell said that while fascism is "a political and economic system" that was inconvenient to define, "as used, the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. ... almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'",[75] and in 1946 wrote that '"Fascism' has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies something not desirable."[76] Richard Griffiths of the University of Wales wrote in 2000 that "fascism" is the "most misused, and over-used word, of our times".[77]: 1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism I assume you have good reasons to believe Republicans are fascist. I'm simply asking you and any others who believe this to share your reasons. Is that not reasonable?
    - spiderfarmer 2y ago
      Even if I listed all reasons why the rhetoric during the campaign reeked of fascism, you’d simply dismiss them, like all the times before where this has been called out already. This is why people rightly feel people like you act like they’re in a cult. You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. Like right now, by editing your comment you're desperately trying to pose there is no accepted definition of fascism. Dismissing definitions only fits the bill.
      - theonething 2y ago
        Ah yes, the "you're too stupid or unreasonable (i.e. deplorable or trash)" to reason with so I won't even try argument. > you’d simply dismiss them I'm a random internet stranger. How could you possibility know me so well? Again, it's just a blanket stereotyping and demonization of people who have different beliefs that you do. A mass ad hominem attack. That attitude is a root of many problems in the political arena. I expect that kind of rhetoric on Reddit, but am disappointed to encounter it here. > Even if I listed all reasons I'm a busy person and I assume you are too. Why don't you list one and we'll go from there?
        spiderfarmer 2y ago
        You already try to dismiss an accepted definition, so why would I bother reiterating all the easy to find articles, videos and podcasts that literally quote and warn of Trump's rhetoric? Do you think you sound like a person that is trying to understand criticism of his party, especially right after voting for them?
        theonething 2y ago
        > You already try to dismiss an accepted definition In this discussion, we've already defined it? where? That's news to me that I can dismiss something that I wasn't aware of. > Do you think you sound like a person that is welcoming criticism I am very welcoming of criticism of my party and the one I voted for. Trump can be a bombastic jerk. I voted for him because his policies align more with my values than Harris'. He was the lesser (much lesser) of two evils. I didn't vote for him in the primaries and I wish he wouldn't have won them. Anyway, you continue to make assumptions about me rather than discuss/debate the issue of why you think Trump is a fascist. It's not much of a discussion and so I'll opt out now. All the best to you.
- siffin 2y ago
  Let's hope we never have to find out, but so many people captivated by a conman while simultaneously crying about everyone else's position is a recipe for abuse. Separating children from parents at the border, reverting hard fought women's right to their own body, that is the stirring of fascist behaviour.
  - theonething 2y ago
    > Separating children from parents at the border That wasn't his main intention. It was to stop the flow of illegal immigration into the country. And after popular criticism, he reversed that policy and never enacted it again. That doesn't sound authoritarian/fascist to me. It sounds more like bending to the will of the people you govern. > reverting hard fought women's right to their own body And a large swath of the country believes abortion is murder. I guess for that, they are fascists in your eyes? The term really has lost it's meaning and is just used by the Left to demonize the other side. > The term fascist has been used as a pejorative,[74] regarding varying movements across the far right of the political spectrum. George Orwell noted in 1944 that the term had been used to denigrate diverse positions "in internal politics". Orwell said that while fascism is "a political and economic system" that was inconvenient to define, "as used, the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. ... almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'",[75] and in 1946 wrote that '"Fascism' has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies something not desirable."[76] Richard Griffiths of the University of Wales wrote in 2000 that "fascism" is the "most misused, and over-used word, of our times".[77]: 1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
  - SirMaster 2y ago
    But the republicans seem to be quite open and free to gun ownership by citizens for example. Wouldn't a fascist government seek to highly control firearms take guns away from its citizens?
- n4r9 2y ago
  Advocating conspiracy theories, undermining trust in democratic process, pro-nationalist, racist, sympathetic to (if not supportive of) white supremacists, ultra-conservative and traditionalist, stoking unfounded fears of communism/marxism, etc...
  - theonething 2y ago
    Those items on your list are more opinions than facts. They are terms used by the Left to demonize their opposition.
    - n4r9 2y ago
      Okay. Let's take conspiracy theories. Trump has promoted the Obama birther conspiracy, pizza gate, that the Clintons are responsible for the death of Epstein and other political opponents, that there was fraud in the 2012 election and various false claims about the 2016, 2020 and 2024 elections, various tropes about Soros etc... It's a fact that Trump shared and promoted these. It's a fact that they are conspiracy theories.
      - theonething 2y ago
        And the Russian collusion "right under our noses" bullshit floated by the Dems turned out to be just that, bullshit conspiracy theory costing taxpayers over $30 million for the investigation. So that makes Dems fascist too then?
        n4r9 2y ago
        Firstly, conspiracy theories are just one aspect of a complex narrative that characterises fascism. Secondly, conspiracy theories generally fly in the face of strong evidence to the contrary. But if you look at the Mueller report, it lists numerous links and collusions between the Trump campaign and Russian government. There were actual criminal offenses. There just wasn't quite enough to prove wilful criminality. Thirdly, unless I'm mistaken, the Dems did not continue to promote claims of a conspiracy between Trump and Russia after the report was accepted.
- gorgoiler 2y ago
  Objectively, the use of force to eject protestors at rallies is of the fascist mindset. Trump endorses it. The counter-argument is that a culture of violent police suppression is just modern America, and it’s not fair to tar one particular party with that particular brush.
  - theonething 2y ago
    > the use of force to eject protestors at rallies This has happened at Harris rallies as well.
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
  I was watching a streamer who once referred to something as “stupid” before they corrected themselves to use a different word (I don’t remember because it’s not the point). The reason for their correction was that they believe that word to be a lazy way of describing something; lots of things can be considered generally “stupid” but there’s always some underlying reason for that conclusion which will invariably be a more informative descriptor. (It takes effort to discover this reason, hence it’s “lazy” when one does not.) I do commonly see “fascist” used to describe things in similar ways where the person seems to be expressing a general disdain for something. They do successfully convey some meaning but it’s very non-specific. Just food for thought for readers who want their opinions heard more than they want to hem and haw over the specific meanings of words.
- ks2048 2y ago
  You can read why Trump's former chief of staff, John Kelly (right wing Marine General) called him a fascist, https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/24/trump-fascist-reaction-john-kelly https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/24/trump-fascis...
- consteval 2y ago
  Many, many ways: 1. Rhetoric of an "enemy within". Trump has already made it clear that he intends to use the US military to "clean out" our country. 2. Supreme consolidation of power. Trump plans to re-enact Schedule F. Tens of thousands of federal workers will be fired, and their replacements will be required to vocalize their devotion to Trump. The bureau meritocracy system, which has been in place since the 1800s, will be removed completely. In its place, a system of political loyalty. 3. Supreme avoidance of the law. Trump is completely immune to any criminal prosecution while president, and he has made it clear he plans to use this newfound power "very aggressively". 4. Desecration of education. Within the first 100 days, the department of education will be dissolved. States will pivot to ahistorical pro-conservative education, if they provide any public education at all.
  - SirMaster 2y ago
    Why then are the republicans so open to lower gun ownership restrictions by the citizens? If they were fascist wouldn't they be doing the opposite? I thought a fascist government would not allow or want the average citizens to own firearms. This is just 1 example that pops into my mind. I can think of other examples too where the republican policies seem to be the direct opposite of what I read that a fascist government would want.
    - consteval 2y ago
      They don't, the last wave of firearm restrictions was proposed by and passed by republicans to respond to black Americans arming themselves.
    - yongjik 2y ago
      Saying that wannabe dictators would fear an armed populace is an American folklore not supported by real world history. In reality, wannabe dictators usually love a disenfranchised, angry population - all you have to do is to tell them there's an evil outsider responsible for their misery. If they're armed and capable of creating more chaos? Even better. No reason to worry, you can deal with them at your leisure once you have the full state under your control. (I'm not saying that the republican party is fascist, just that there's nothing in their gun policy that would be inconsistent with a wannabe fascist party.)

by siffin 2y ago

Jensson 2y ago

> At what point do you call fascism fascism? When it's too late? You call it fascism when it is fascism. Once it is openly fascist then it is probably too late to stop, but you don't call it fascism until it is fascism.

drawkward 2y ago
So, only when it is too late can you talk about it?

theonething 2y ago

How exactly is Trump/Republican party fascist?

spiderfarmer 2y ago
You could try to answer this yourself by looking up the definition and cross checking it with the rhetoric from the republican party during this campaign.
- theonething 2y ago
  The burden of proof is with the accuser. I fail to see how the Republican party is fascist. I think it's a term the Left uses to demonize their opposition. Ironically, that is kind of fascist-like. > The term fascist has been used as a pejorative,[74] regarding varying movements across the far right of the political spectrum. George Orwell noted in 1944 that the term had been used to denigrate diverse positions "in internal politics". Orwell said that while fascism is "a political and economic system" that was inconvenient to define, "as used, the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. ... almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'",[75] and in 1946 wrote that '"Fascism' has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies something not desirable."[76] Richard Griffiths of the University of Wales wrote in 2000 that "fascism" is the "most misused, and over-used word, of our times".[77]: 1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism I assume you have good reasons to believe Republicans are fascist. I'm simply asking you and any others who believe this to share your reasons. Is that not reasonable?
  - spiderfarmer 2y ago
    Even if I listed all reasons why the rhetoric during the campaign reeked of fascism, you’d simply dismiss them, like all the times before where this has been called out already. This is why people rightly feel people like you act like they’re in a cult. You can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into. Like right now, by editing your comment you're desperately trying to pose there is no accepted definition of fascism. Dismissing definitions only fits the bill.
    - theonething 2y ago
      Ah yes, the "you're too stupid or unreasonable (i.e. deplorable or trash)" to reason with so I won't even try argument. > you’d simply dismiss them I'm a random internet stranger. How could you possibility know me so well? Again, it's just a blanket stereotyping and demonization of people who have different beliefs that you do. A mass ad hominem attack. That attitude is a root of many problems in the political arena. I expect that kind of rhetoric on Reddit, but am disappointed to encounter it here. > Even if I listed all reasons I'm a busy person and I assume you are too. Why don't you list one and we'll go from there?
      - spiderfarmer 2y ago
        You already try to dismiss an accepted definition, so why would I bother reiterating all the easy to find articles, videos and podcasts that literally quote and warn of Trump's rhetoric? Do you think you sound like a person that is trying to understand criticism of his party, especially right after voting for them?
        theonething 2y ago
        > You already try to dismiss an accepted definition In this discussion, we've already defined it? where? That's news to me that I can dismiss something that I wasn't aware of. > Do you think you sound like a person that is welcoming criticism I am very welcoming of criticism of my party and the one I voted for. Trump can be a bombastic jerk. I voted for him because his policies align more with my values than Harris'. He was the lesser (much lesser) of two evils. I didn't vote for him in the primaries and I wish he wouldn't have won them. Anyway, you continue to make assumptions about me rather than discuss/debate the issue of why you think Trump is a fascist. It's not much of a discussion and so I'll opt out now. All the best to you.
siffin 2y ago
Let's hope we never have to find out, but so many people captivated by a conman while simultaneously crying about everyone else's position is a recipe for abuse. Separating children from parents at the border, reverting hard fought women's right to their own body, that is the stirring of fascist behaviour.
- theonething 2y ago
  > Separating children from parents at the border That wasn't his main intention. It was to stop the flow of illegal immigration into the country. And after popular criticism, he reversed that policy and never enacted it again. That doesn't sound authoritarian/fascist to me. It sounds more like bending to the will of the people you govern. > reverting hard fought women's right to their own body And a large swath of the country believes abortion is murder. I guess for that, they are fascists in your eyes? The term really has lost it's meaning and is just used by the Left to demonize the other side. > The term fascist has been used as a pejorative,[74] regarding varying movements across the far right of the political spectrum. George Orwell noted in 1944 that the term had been used to denigrate diverse positions "in internal politics". Orwell said that while fascism is "a political and economic system" that was inconvenient to define, "as used, the word 'Fascism' is almost entirely meaningless. ... almost any English person would accept 'bully' as a synonym for 'Fascist'",[75] and in 1946 wrote that '"Fascism' has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies something not desirable."[76] Richard Griffiths of the University of Wales wrote in 2000 that "fascism" is the "most misused, and over-used word, of our times".[77]: 1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism
- SirMaster 2y ago
  But the republicans seem to be quite open and free to gun ownership by citizens for example. Wouldn't a fascist government seek to highly control firearms take guns away from its citizens?
n4r9 2y ago
Advocating conspiracy theories, undermining trust in democratic process, pro-nationalist, racist, sympathetic to (if not supportive of) white supremacists, ultra-conservative and traditionalist, stoking unfounded fears of communism/marxism, etc...
- theonething 2y ago
  Those items on your list are more opinions than facts. They are terms used by the Left to demonize their opposition.
  - n4r9 2y ago
    Okay. Let's take conspiracy theories. Trump has promoted the Obama birther conspiracy, pizza gate, that the Clintons are responsible for the death of Epstein and other political opponents, that there was fraud in the 2012 election and various false claims about the 2016, 2020 and 2024 elections, various tropes about Soros etc... It's a fact that Trump shared and promoted these. It's a fact that they are conspiracy theories.
    - theonething 2y ago
      And the Russian collusion "right under our noses" bullshit floated by the Dems turned out to be just that, bullshit conspiracy theory costing taxpayers over $30 million for the investigation. So that makes Dems fascist too then?
      - n4r9 2y ago
        Firstly, conspiracy theories are just one aspect of a complex narrative that characterises fascism. Secondly, conspiracy theories generally fly in the face of strong evidence to the contrary. But if you look at the Mueller report, it lists numerous links and collusions between the Trump campaign and Russian government. There were actual criminal offenses. There just wasn't quite enough to prove wilful criminality. Thirdly, unless I'm mistaken, the Dems did not continue to promote claims of a conspiracy between Trump and Russia after the report was accepted.
gorgoiler 2y ago
Objectively, the use of force to eject protestors at rallies is of the fascist mindset. Trump endorses it. The counter-argument is that a culture of violent police suppression is just modern America, and it’s not fair to tar one particular party with that particular brush.
- theonething 2y ago
  > the use of force to eject protestors at rallies This has happened at Harris rallies as well.
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 2y ago
I was watching a streamer who once referred to something as “stupid” before they corrected themselves to use a different word (I don’t remember because it’s not the point). The reason for their correction was that they believe that word to be a lazy way of describing something; lots of things can be considered generally “stupid” but there’s always some underlying reason for that conclusion which will invariably be a more informative descriptor. (It takes effort to discover this reason, hence it’s “lazy” when one does not.) I do commonly see “fascist” used to describe things in similar ways where the person seems to be expressing a general disdain for something. They do successfully convey some meaning but it’s very non-specific. Just food for thought for readers who want their opinions heard more than they want to hem and haw over the specific meanings of words.
ks2048 2y ago
You can read why Trump's former chief of staff, John Kelly (right wing Marine General) called him a fascist, https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/24/trump-fascist-reaction-john-kelly https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/oct/24/trump-fascis...
consteval 2y ago
Many, many ways: 1. Rhetoric of an "enemy within". Trump has already made it clear that he intends to use the US military to "clean out" our country. 2. Supreme consolidation of power. Trump plans to re-enact Schedule F. Tens of thousands of federal workers will be fired, and their replacements will be required to vocalize their devotion to Trump. The bureau meritocracy system, which has been in place since the 1800s, will be removed completely. In its place, a system of political loyalty. 3. Supreme avoidance of the law. Trump is completely immune to any criminal prosecution while president, and he has made it clear he plans to use this newfound power "very aggressively". 4. Desecration of education. Within the first 100 days, the department of education will be dissolved. States will pivot to ahistorical pro-conservative education, if they provide any public education at all.
- SirMaster 2y ago
  Why then are the republicans so open to lower gun ownership restrictions by the citizens? If they were fascist wouldn't they be doing the opposite? I thought a fascist government would not allow or want the average citizens to own firearms. This is just 1 example that pops into my mind. I can think of other examples too where the republican policies seem to be the direct opposite of what I read that a fascist government would want.
  - consteval 2y ago
    They don't, the last wave of firearm restrictions was proposed by and passed by republicans to respond to black Americans arming themselves.
  - yongjik 2y ago
    Saying that wannabe dictators would fear an armed populace is an American folklore not supported by real world history. In reality, wannabe dictators usually love a disenfranchised, angry population - all you have to do is to tell them there's an evil outsider responsible for their misery. If they're armed and capable of creating more chaos? Even better. No reason to worry, you can deal with them at your leisure once you have the full state under your control. (I'm not saying that the republican party is fascist, just that there's nothing in their gun policy that would be inconsistent with a wannabe fascist party.)