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> “You’re better looking than the guy I talked to before.” Such harassment remains common for tradeswomen If people think this is harassment, no wonder people

> “You’re better looking than the guy I talked to before.” Such harassment remains common for tradeswomen If people think this is harassment, no wonder people experience a lot of harassment. Unless there was more to it the correct answer is along the lines of "yes thankfully" and then a laugh. I'd recommend a good look in the mirror when looking for the problem in such situations. Same goes for the thing about trying to discreetly notifying that someone has dirty hands: Yes, I don't know what is up with Americans and demanding everyone has clean hands at all times, but as long as that is a thing this probably is meant as a favor. Maybe clumsily, but still. More generally the saying: "when you hear hooves, think horses, not zebras" comes to mind: If you expect things to be meant funny or helpful (and give people some slack) maybe life becomes a lot less stressful than if everything has to be seen through a lens of gender dynamics. And if one is known as a reasonable person, I guess people will also take your side if you have to be loud and clear about something, e.g. if it turns out someone wasn't just clumsily trying to be nice or funny.

blitzar 2y ago
I still get flashes of the traumatic day when I was in the kitchen area at work making myself a cup of tea and one of the female employees came in and said "You are a strong and tall man, can you get that heavy box from the top shelf for me".
- kazinator 2y ago
  I had that happen numerous times in supermarkets.
  - blitzar 2y ago
    The supermarket encounters are most often dirty old women who are still stuck in the past, or have gotten away with it for so long they just don't know any better.
    - pessimizer 2y ago
      It's not sexual harassment, it's flattery to get you to do a favor for them. They would never sleep with you. It's also extremely normal and anodyne. Why do men think sexism is symmetrical? The reason sexual overtures from men are a problem is because they are usually serious and they are statistically threatening, because men often hurt women who don't respond to them in a way they deem appropriate. You would never fear this woman.
      - fhfjfk 2y ago
        As a fearful anxious man - Don't presume to know what I fear. I expect variation in the women I meet, some will be scared of me and some have much bigger balls than I do. If I calibrate my banter such that 1% of women are scared, am I in the wrong?
        kazinator 2y ago
        All that matters is how real is what you fear. Any difference between fear and reality is for shrinks to deal with, not public policy.
      - DrPimienta 2y ago
        If rules and laws aren't going to be applied equally to women the way they are to men, then why should men and women ever be treated equally? Black people are statistically much, much more likely to commit rape, murder, and robbery than any other racial group. Would you agree this is reason to fear black people, the way you believe it's justified to fear men? I mean "they are statistically threatening" after all.
        deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
      - DrPimienta 2y ago
        "It's not sexual harassment, it's flattery to get you to do a favor for them. They would never sleep with you." That's the same with men too, usually. Why do you think it's sexism?
- skulk 2y ago
  Haha, yes funny absurd gender swap. You should actually talk to women and try to understand why they feel the way they feel instead of ridiculing it.
  - DrPimienta 2y ago
    The fact that you would dismiss his lived experience this way is disgusting, problematic, patronizing, and sexist.
jandrese 2y ago
I think this is one of those cases where a strong majority of the population in question can handle the interactions just fine, but the ones who can not are extremely vocal about it. The complainers get their way and company policy is changed for everybody. Many people go "well, it was for the best I guess", but for others it is some whiner ruining the fun for everybody. In extreme cases we have national examples where people's entire careers have ended over a tasteless but largely harmless joke told decades earlier (See: Al Franken) and that kind of threat feels scary.
- fhfjfk 2y ago
  This has more nuance than just whiners vs normal people. Using verboten words as an example, I'm often willing to stop using words that others don't like. The harm to me is low (english is a big language, there's plenty of other words left), so if there's any harm at all to another it's reasonable for me to stop using the word. Assessment of harm will vary, as will harm to me from loss of words - which is why I stand my ground on some technical words. My line is, n* - Not even going to type it pronouns - Whatever floats your boat master->main - Sure. Fine. I guess. Stop coming in my room and messing with my stuff. master/slave->controller/peripheral - Really? I'm going to say no for now, but work on brevity and check back later. MOSI/MISO->??? - NO. Does drawing the line there make me a bigot? Where's the cutoff?
  - AnnualDegree99 2y ago
    On the contrary, I think Controller/Peripheral is more precise and descriptive than Master/Slave in the context of Master/Slave protocols.
    - fhfjfk 2y ago
      There's cases where a peripheral could be a master. The BLE wireless protocol separates roles into central/peripheral and server/client. Often, but not always, a peripheral is a server.
jfengel 2y ago
As an isolated incident, it's charming. When it's every day of your life, it gets to be upsetting. Especially when past experiences have included more than on incident where the charming line was followed by anger and insults when it wasn't properly appreciated. Ask your female friends if it's ever happened to them. I expect a large majority of them will be able to tell you a story. Here's the best way I've been able to come up with, to get a feel for it. Suppose you have a nice watch. When somebody says, "Nice watch!", you say, "Thanks". But when you start meeting more than one person who won't stop talking about your watch, you get a little antsy. When somebody follows up with "Give me your fucking watch!" you start to think about leaving it at home some times. Except that when you're a woman, you can never leave that at home. This experience really isn't just about her. It's something practically all women experience. She seems to have just assumed her audience would share that context -- perhaps a side effect of being in academia.
- conradfr 2y ago
  Workers in contact with the general population ear the same jokes everyday. Ask a cashier. Actors get their famous catchphrases thrown at them consistently as well. That's just the way it goes.
  - averageRoyalty 2y ago
    "Sugar?" "No, I'm sweet enough" 100% agree, this is just people filling the emptiness with idle chatter. Intent matters.
    - mewpmewp2 2y ago
      It is hard as a customer as well if you are aware about it. You just want to do something light hearted to break the ice, but the other side has seen everything, so should you just shut up, which sounds a bit depressing. And sometimes you get a flash of what you think might be witty, but obviously the other side has had those interactions 1000s of times and what are the odds of coming up with something exactly original and funny enough.
- 2y ago
LitFan 2y ago
It sounds like from your perspective, being better looking than their co-workers is a good thing. By and large, men are going to find women better looking than other men. That means the "better looking" comment is directly pointing out that the recipient of the comment is a woman. This article is talking specifically about the ways in which it is detrimental to be a tradeswoman. So in this context, being a woman makes it more difficult for this person to their job. Looking at another example of something that would make being a tradesperson difficult: Would you call it harassment if customers were consistently making flippant remarks about a co-worker that was missing a hand?
- skinkestek 2y ago
  > It sounds like from your perspective, being better looking than their co-workers is a good thing. By and large, men are going to find women better looking than other men. That means the "better looking" comment is directly pointing out that the recipient of the comment is a woman. It is hard to be funny without referring to anything about the current situation.
- nashashmi 2y ago
  The other perspective on this is Women put a lot of care into how they look. Men don't. Admiration for your best qualities is a gesture of friendship. Same goes with those who are young and energetic. Statements like "pretty boy" is a compliment and adoration. Or statements like "big guy" or "general" for old and experienced.
TacticalCoder 2y ago
> If people think this is harassment, no wonder people experience a lot of harassment. Especially seen that people pushing for this to be considered harassment are the exact same demographic closing their eyes when it's pointed to them that number of actual rapes are going through the roof in Europe. White men joking about a woman looking good: harassment. White women getting raped: eyes closed, don't want to hear about it. And of course the overlap between polite people complimenting women that they're good looking and actual rapists is approximately zero. Priorities, priorities.
globular-toast 2y ago
I often wonder what my life would be like if I'd been told as a child that I would face discrimination. Would I attribute every failure, rejection, misfortune, and unfair treatment to systematic discrimination? I think I probably would.
- skinkestek 2y ago
  I wasn't included in almost anything (games, typically soccer in breaks, after school activities) before I was almost a teenager and switched school. That was also the first time I didn't get in trouble for defending my personal space. I had poor parents (dad working low paid jobs, stay at home mom). Grew up far from cousins. Started working (real, hard work) as soon as it was legal as a 15 y.o. Started paying my own clothes and shoes then as far as possible. I probably could have made a point out of all that more often, but I have chosen to be thankful for loving parents, growing up in a good country and getting a lot of friends as I grew up. But I do find it hilarious when certain HNers want to educate me about privilege just because I am a white SW engineer. Edit, to be clear: I don't accuse you of trying to educate me. It seems you are just thinking out loud. I am just pointing out that it is possible to not let ones background influence ones present too much.
bitcharmer 2y ago
It's the oppression olympics of 2024. Some people just like to get offended recreationally.
akimbostrawman 2y ago
You know you are incredible privileged when the worst example of harassment you can use to virtue signal is a playful compliment. https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/663/485/1f8.jpg https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/663/485/1f8...
fennecbutt 2y ago
Harassment seems universal for anyone outside the norm tho. I've (gay) been pressed by colleagues about having children before, when they find out I'm gay they've still pressed (just you wait, you'll realise you want them eventually). I personally didn't care myself but I would still class it as harassment. Or like being told I had "man flu" by a female member of staff, to which I said nothing of course. Because what do you say? Along with many more instances of what I would call harassment. Women definitely experience a higher degree of it for sure, but I think many men also brush being harassed off, the same as they do for a lot of things that would make one seem unmanly.

blitzar 2y ago

I still get flashes of the traumatic day when I was in the kitchen area at work making myself a cup of tea and one of the female employees came in and said "You are a strong and tall man, can you get that heavy box from the top shelf for me".

kazinator 2y ago
I had that happen numerous times in supermarkets.
- blitzar 2y ago
  The supermarket encounters are most often dirty old women who are still stuck in the past, or have gotten away with it for so long they just don't know any better.
  - pessimizer 2y ago
    It's not sexual harassment, it's flattery to get you to do a favor for them. They would never sleep with you. It's also extremely normal and anodyne. Why do men think sexism is symmetrical? The reason sexual overtures from men are a problem is because they are usually serious and they are statistically threatening, because men often hurt women who don't respond to them in a way they deem appropriate. You would never fear this woman.
    - fhfjfk 2y ago
      As a fearful anxious man - Don't presume to know what I fear. I expect variation in the women I meet, some will be scared of me and some have much bigger balls than I do. If I calibrate my banter such that 1% of women are scared, am I in the wrong?
      - kazinator 2y ago
        All that matters is how real is what you fear. Any difference between fear and reality is for shrinks to deal with, not public policy.
    - DrPimienta 2y ago
      If rules and laws aren't going to be applied equally to women the way they are to men, then why should men and women ever be treated equally? Black people are statistically much, much more likely to commit rape, murder, and robbery than any other racial group. Would you agree this is reason to fear black people, the way you believe it's justified to fear men? I mean "they are statistically threatening" after all.
      - deleted 2y ago
        [deleted]
    - DrPimienta 2y ago
      "It's not sexual harassment, it's flattery to get you to do a favor for them. They would never sleep with you." That's the same with men too, usually. Why do you think it's sexism?
skulk 2y ago
Haha, yes funny absurd gender swap. You should actually talk to women and try to understand why they feel the way they feel instead of ridiculing it.
- DrPimienta 2y ago
  The fact that you would dismiss his lived experience this way is disgusting, problematic, patronizing, and sexist.

jandrese 2y ago

I think this is one of those cases where a strong majority of the population in question can handle the interactions just fine, but the ones who can not are extremely vocal about it. The complainers get their way and company policy is changed for everybody. Many people go "well, it was for the best I guess", but for others it is some whiner ruining the fun for everybody. In extreme cases we have national examples where people's entire careers have ended over a tasteless but largely harmless joke told decades earlier (See: Al Franken) and that kind of threat feels scary.

fhfjfk 2y ago
This has more nuance than just whiners vs normal people. Using verboten words as an example, I'm often willing to stop using words that others don't like. The harm to me is low (english is a big language, there's plenty of other words left), so if there's any harm at all to another it's reasonable for me to stop using the word. Assessment of harm will vary, as will harm to me from loss of words - which is why I stand my ground on some technical words. My line is, n* - Not even going to type it pronouns - Whatever floats your boat master->main - Sure. Fine. I guess. Stop coming in my room and messing with my stuff. master/slave->controller/peripheral - Really? I'm going to say no for now, but work on brevity and check back later. MOSI/MISO->??? - NO. Does drawing the line there make me a bigot? Where's the cutoff?
- AnnualDegree99 2y ago
  On the contrary, I think Controller/Peripheral is more precise and descriptive than Master/Slave in the context of Master/Slave protocols.
  - fhfjfk 2y ago
    There's cases where a peripheral could be a master. The BLE wireless protocol separates roles into central/peripheral and server/client. Often, but not always, a peripheral is a server.

jfengel 2y ago

As an isolated incident, it's charming. When it's every day of your life, it gets to be upsetting. Especially when past experiences have included more than on incident where the charming line was followed by anger and insults when it wasn't properly appreciated. Ask your female friends if it's ever happened to them. I expect a large majority of them will be able to tell you a story. Here's the best way I've been able to come up with, to get a feel for it. Suppose you have a nice watch. When somebody says, "Nice watch!", you say, "Thanks". But when you start meeting more than one person who won't stop talking about your watch, you get a little antsy. When somebody follows up with "Give me your fucking watch!" you start to think about leaving it at home some times. Except that when you're a woman, you can never leave that at home. This experience really isn't just about her. It's something practically all women experience. She seems to have just assumed her audience would share that context -- perhaps a side effect of being in academia.

conradfr 2y ago
Workers in contact with the general population ear the same jokes everyday. Ask a cashier. Actors get their famous catchphrases thrown at them consistently as well. That's just the way it goes.
- averageRoyalty 2y ago
  "Sugar?" "No, I'm sweet enough" 100% agree, this is just people filling the emptiness with idle chatter. Intent matters.
  - mewpmewp2 2y ago
    It is hard as a customer as well if you are aware about it. You just want to do something light hearted to break the ice, but the other side has seen everything, so should you just shut up, which sounds a bit depressing. And sometimes you get a flash of what you think might be witty, but obviously the other side has had those interactions 1000s of times and what are the odds of coming up with something exactly original and funny enough.
2y ago

LitFan 2y ago

It sounds like from your perspective, being better looking than their co-workers is a good thing. By and large, men are going to find women better looking than other men. That means the "better looking" comment is directly pointing out that the recipient of the comment is a woman. This article is talking specifically about the ways in which it is detrimental to be a tradeswoman. So in this context, being a woman makes it more difficult for this person to their job. Looking at another example of something that would make being a tradesperson difficult: Would you call it harassment if customers were consistently making flippant remarks about a co-worker that was missing a hand?

skinkestek 2y ago
> It sounds like from your perspective, being better looking than their co-workers is a good thing. By and large, men are going to find women better looking than other men. That means the "better looking" comment is directly pointing out that the recipient of the comment is a woman. It is hard to be funny without referring to anything about the current situation.
nashashmi 2y ago
The other perspective on this is Women put a lot of care into how they look. Men don't. Admiration for your best qualities is a gesture of friendship. Same goes with those who are young and energetic. Statements like "pretty boy" is a compliment and adoration. Or statements like "big guy" or "general" for old and experienced.

TacticalCoder 2y ago

> If people think this is harassment, no wonder people experience a lot of harassment. Especially seen that people pushing for this to be considered harassment are the exact same demographic closing their eyes when it's pointed to them that number of actual rapes are going through the roof in Europe. White men joking about a woman looking good: harassment. White women getting raped: eyes closed, don't want to hear about it. And of course the overlap between polite people complimenting women that they're good looking and actual rapists is approximately zero. Priorities, priorities.

globular-toast 2y ago

I often wonder what my life would be like if I'd been told as a child that I would face discrimination. Would I attribute every failure, rejection, misfortune, and unfair treatment to systematic discrimination? I think I probably would.

skinkestek 2y ago
I wasn't included in almost anything (games, typically soccer in breaks, after school activities) before I was almost a teenager and switched school. That was also the first time I didn't get in trouble for defending my personal space. I had poor parents (dad working low paid jobs, stay at home mom). Grew up far from cousins. Started working (real, hard work) as soon as it was legal as a 15 y.o. Started paying my own clothes and shoes then as far as possible. I probably could have made a point out of all that more often, but I have chosen to be thankful for loving parents, growing up in a good country and getting a lot of friends as I grew up. But I do find it hilarious when certain HNers want to educate me about privilege just because I am a white SW engineer. Edit, to be clear: I don't accuse you of trying to educate me. It seems you are just thinking out loud. I am just pointing out that it is possible to not let ones background influence ones present too much.

bitcharmer 2y ago

It's the oppression olympics of 2024. Some people just like to get offended recreationally.

akimbostrawman 2y ago

You know you are incredible privileged when the worst example of harassment you can use to virtue signal is a playful compliment. https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/663/485/1f8.jpg https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/663/485/1f8...

fennecbutt 2y ago

Harassment seems universal for anyone outside the norm tho. I've (gay) been pressed by colleagues about having children before, when they find out I'm gay they've still pressed (just you wait, you'll realise you want them eventually). I personally didn't care myself but I would still class it as harassment. Or like being told I had "man flu" by a female member of staff, to which I said nothing of course. Because what do you say? Along with many more instances of what I would call harassment. Women definitely experience a higher degree of it for sure, but I think many men also brush being harassed off, the same as they do for a lot of things that would make one seem unmanly.