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Apple to Face First EU Fine Under Bloc's Digital Markets Act

61 points by mfiguiere 2y ago

linotype 2y ago
The EU should just tax Apple at a higher rate. It’d be more transparent that way what they’re doing.
- avtolik 2y ago
  Taxing monopolies at a higher rate. Not a bad idea actually.
  - wbl 2y ago
    What market does Apple monopolize?
    - ReptileMan 2y ago
      "Software that runs on iphone" market.
      - linotype 2y ago
        I thought they opened that up in the EU.
        fhdsgbbcaA 2y ago
        In the most bad faith way possible. They are going to get absolutely gutted on this. They think they’re above the fray, but there’s a reason Google and Meta are taking DMA way more seriously than GDPR - it’s basically a speedboat loaded with explosives in regulatory terms. It’s designed to move fast and take out targets with extreme prejudice. It is crafted to explicitly overcome the barriers that prevent GDPR being enforced (eg Ireland). Apple is fucking around with the EU, and will very shortly find out why the DMA is written the way it is.
        gostsamo 2y ago
        the door is wide closed in the EU.
      - wbl 2y ago
        Why on earth is that a relevant market. We don't look at cars as separate software from the hardware. Apples competition is Android and if better apps come out on Android it will win whatever small share the luxury option has.
        lxgr 2y ago
        Maybe we would, if there were only two car manufacturers that also happen to run their own private roads, bridges, mechanics etc. that are also mutually not compatible.
        hightrix 2y ago
        It shouldn’t be. There is no monopoly. There are people that are mad you can’t get blue iMessages from an android and you can’t side load “easily”. That’s it.
        okanat 2y ago
        Nobody cares about iMessage in the EU. That level of classist discrimination is a US phenomenon.
        hermitdev 2y ago
        And if the blue bubble matters to one's "friends" in the US...then one needs better friends.
        Evidlo 2y ago
        The WhatApp dependence of EU countries is worse than the US SMS situation. At least I (US resident) can communicate with whatever app/device I choose.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- caseyy 2y ago
  A tax they wouldn’t need to pay if they didn’t blatantly break our laws.
- caekislove 2y ago
  These "You broke our arbitrary rules, therefore we fine you x% of your income" schemes are just a roundabout way for the EU to put an income tax on foreign corporations. It's going to blow up in their faces when companies start deciding that access to a shrinking European market just isn't worth the cost and hassle.
  - surgical_fire 2y ago
    Ooh please let this be true. When Apple stops selling their shitty hardware here, can they take home Google and Facebook too?
    - sieabahlpark 2y ago
      [dead]
    - pertymcpert 2y ago
      I've never accidentally bought an Apple product so I don't really know what you're complaining about. Do you find it an issue?
  - colechristensen 2y ago
    They're not arbitrary. If they were overly precise, a trillion dollar company would find every loophole for years and years. There are 450 million people in the EU, nobody thinks Apple is just going to casually walk away.
  - pyrale 2y ago
    > when companies start deciding that access to a shrinking European market just isn't worth the cost and hassle. Aka never. First off because they would get shredded by their investors, and second because the competitors emerging in that void would end up being threats in the future.
    - dmitrygr 2y ago
      If you think that something comparable to a modern phone operating system and hardware will “just spring up” you’re delusional. If somebody was capable of producing more powerful phones than the iPhone, they’d be doing it already.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  Apple should just follow the regulations. It would be more transparent than breaking the law and being fined for it.
  - threeseed 2y ago
    Can you please point out specifically which regulation Apple is infringing. Because DMA was designed not to be explicit so relies on interpretation.
    - chgs 2y ago
      Laws are not designed to be explicit, they aren’t code.
    - thfuran 2y ago
      That is hardly unique to DMA. Law is rife with things requiring interpretation. See, for example, the reasonable person standard: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person
      - threeseed 2y ago
        Not arguing it is unique to DMA. But my point is that you can't say "just comply with the law" when compliance has been a much more interactive process.
      - joe_the_user 2y ago
        Yes, and laws involve intent. A lot of laws "when you do a thing that has a result and you intend that result to happen, you're guilty of creating the result". It doesn't matter the thing you do. If you invent some new way of killing someone, and kill someone with it, you're guilty of murder even if the never heard of this particular way of killing someone, etc. In Apple's case, the edict was to create competition by opening up the app stores. Apple "opened" its app store in a way that failed to actually allow competition and so it is subject to the fine. This is exactly why laws work this way - to prevent what is now called "gaming" the system.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- drexlspivey 2y ago
  The EU is not a country and it doesnt set tax rates
- cma 2y ago
  App store developers and app store participants don't have a good way to collectively organize, whereas Apple shareholders get all kinds of support to organize together.
gary_0 2y ago
https://archive.is/slqAq https://archive.is/slqAq
decremental 2y ago
[dead]
esperent 2y ago
The comments here are exactly the same set of comments under every single article related to US companies facing issues in European markets. There's another article on the front page about Netflix's Dutch offices being raided in a tax probe and I could copy/paste entire comment chains between the two and you wouldn't know it. -> Irate American complaint about how it's a stealth tax -> equally irate European rebuttal that US companies should just follow the laws if they want to do business here -> Follow up irate American reply ... Repeat until 3 or 4 comments down it's somehow become: -> American: US GDP is so much higher than in the EU -> European: but quality of life is better here because of free healthcare etc, GDP isn't a good measure, I went to the US once and saw poors on the street! -> American: something angry about socialism ... And so on. It's the same tedious argument on every single article about EU privacy laws or taxes, and I could also copy/paste these exact comments from a Reddit post about the same issue and nobody would be the wiser.
- satvikpendem 2y ago
  Also add in comments (especially when talking about the DMA or similar) about how Apple isn't "truly a monopoly," that "they built the platform, they should get a cut," "video game consoles also take 30%," it'll "decrease security" if Apple allows alternative stores, etc. Some people really love the corporation like their own friend, essentially in a parasocial relationship with Apple.
  - esperent 2y ago
    Yes, absolutely. Although at least those seem to be unique to articles on Apple, I don't think I could change the company to Facebook or Netflix and copy them to another post without people noticing.
- atoav 2y ago
  As a European who posted in said article what always gets my blood boiling is the way in which (presumably average?) US commenters will defend things like a big multinational corporation not paying taxes in the market where they are selling their product. I don't really see this even as political: Sure say that if you are the top brass in a big multinational corp, but most of us aren't that and will never be. So if they paid even just a modest amount of taxes, us regular Joes would need to pay less, if assume unchanges levels of public spending. So what I don't get is the quasi-reflexive need to shill for corporations who make it harder for outsiders to rise up in the market. I know what they say about Americans seeing themselves not as poor, but as temporarily embarassed billionaires, but how are you going to have a cut at the american dream by shilling for quasi-monopolists?
rgreekguy 2y ago
I cannot load half (?) of the article, but the situation right now is a joke, indeed. I don't remember if there are other alternative stores outside SetApp, which is still in Beta, and AltStore PAL. I have downloaded the later. It has two (2) applications and 4-5 extra sources. I have only subscribed (?) to the UTM one. Epic Games also has one, by the way. Now, AltStore has been a thing for some time now. There are many more sources (repositories of sort) out there. But, if you go to add a new one, it says "no marketplace ID was found, there are no notarized apps in this source, which is not supported in this version." Googling what is up I found that Apple has to give the greenlight for apps to get posted to the alternative store(s). Which already has been inspected by Apple. It's a joke of the kind only Apple can make. And I was just aware that alternative app stores will be a thing and Googled explicitly for them, of course I found no promotion in the App Store for them. They are too busy promoting the same apps again and again and falsely advertising stuff, as Apple does.

61 points by mfiguiere 2y ago

linotype 2y ago

The EU should just tax Apple at a higher rate. It’d be more transparent that way what they’re doing.

avtolik 2y ago
Taxing monopolies at a higher rate. Not a bad idea actually.
- wbl 2y ago
  What market does Apple monopolize?
  - ReptileMan 2y ago
    "Software that runs on iphone" market.
    - linotype 2y ago
      I thought they opened that up in the EU.
      - fhdsgbbcaA 2y ago
        In the most bad faith way possible. They are going to get absolutely gutted on this. They think they’re above the fray, but there’s a reason Google and Meta are taking DMA way more seriously than GDPR - it’s basically a speedboat loaded with explosives in regulatory terms. It’s designed to move fast and take out targets with extreme prejudice. It is crafted to explicitly overcome the barriers that prevent GDPR being enforced (eg Ireland). Apple is fucking around with the EU, and will very shortly find out why the DMA is written the way it is.
      - gostsamo 2y ago
        the door is wide closed in the EU.
    - wbl 2y ago
      Why on earth is that a relevant market. We don't look at cars as separate software from the hardware. Apples competition is Android and if better apps come out on Android it will win whatever small share the luxury option has.
      - lxgr 2y ago
        Maybe we would, if there were only two car manufacturers that also happen to run their own private roads, bridges, mechanics etc. that are also mutually not compatible.
      - hightrix 2y ago
        It shouldn’t be. There is no monopoly. There are people that are mad you can’t get blue iMessages from an android and you can’t side load “easily”. That’s it.
        okanat 2y ago
        Nobody cares about iMessage in the EU. That level of classist discrimination is a US phenomenon.
        hermitdev 2y ago
        And if the blue bubble matters to one's "friends" in the US...then one needs better friends.
        Evidlo 2y ago
        The WhatApp dependence of EU countries is worse than the US SMS situation. At least I (US resident) can communicate with whatever app/device I choose.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
caseyy 2y ago
A tax they wouldn’t need to pay if they didn’t blatantly break our laws.
caekislove 2y ago
These "You broke our arbitrary rules, therefore we fine you x% of your income" schemes are just a roundabout way for the EU to put an income tax on foreign corporations. It's going to blow up in their faces when companies start deciding that access to a shrinking European market just isn't worth the cost and hassle.
- surgical_fire 2y ago
  Ooh please let this be true. When Apple stops selling their shitty hardware here, can they take home Google and Facebook too?
  - sieabahlpark 2y ago
    [dead]
  - pertymcpert 2y ago
    I've never accidentally bought an Apple product so I don't really know what you're complaining about. Do you find it an issue?
- colechristensen 2y ago
  They're not arbitrary. If they were overly precise, a trillion dollar company would find every loophole for years and years. There are 450 million people in the EU, nobody thinks Apple is just going to casually walk away.
- pyrale 2y ago
  > when companies start deciding that access to a shrinking European market just isn't worth the cost and hassle. Aka never. First off because they would get shredded by their investors, and second because the competitors emerging in that void would end up being threats in the future.
  - dmitrygr 2y ago
    If you think that something comparable to a modern phone operating system and hardware will “just spring up” you’re delusional. If somebody was capable of producing more powerful phones than the iPhone, they’d be doing it already.
surgical_fire 2y ago
Apple should just follow the regulations. It would be more transparent than breaking the law and being fined for it.
- threeseed 2y ago
  Can you please point out specifically which regulation Apple is infringing. Because DMA was designed not to be explicit so relies on interpretation.
  - chgs 2y ago
    Laws are not designed to be explicit, they aren’t code.
  - thfuran 2y ago
    That is hardly unique to DMA. Law is rife with things requiring interpretation. See, for example, the reasonable person standard: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person
    - threeseed 2y ago
      Not arguing it is unique to DMA. But my point is that you can't say "just comply with the law" when compliance has been a much more interactive process.
    - joe_the_user 2y ago
      Yes, and laws involve intent. A lot of laws "when you do a thing that has a result and you intend that result to happen, you're guilty of creating the result". It doesn't matter the thing you do. If you invent some new way of killing someone, and kill someone with it, you're guilty of murder even if the never heard of this particular way of killing someone, etc. In Apple's case, the edict was to create competition by opening up the app stores. Apple "opened" its app store in a way that failed to actually allow competition and so it is subject to the fine. This is exactly why laws work this way - to prevent what is now called "gaming" the system.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
drexlspivey 2y ago
The EU is not a country and it doesnt set tax rates
cma 2y ago
App store developers and app store participants don't have a good way to collectively organize, whereas Apple shareholders get all kinds of support to organize together.

gary_0 2y ago

https://archive.is/slqAq https://archive.is/slqAq

decremental 2y ago

[dead]

esperent 2y ago

The comments here are exactly the same set of comments under every single article related to US companies facing issues in European markets. There's another article on the front page about Netflix's Dutch offices being raided in a tax probe and I could copy/paste entire comment chains between the two and you wouldn't know it. -> Irate American complaint about how it's a stealth tax -> equally irate European rebuttal that US companies should just follow the laws if they want to do business here -> Follow up irate American reply ... Repeat until 3 or 4 comments down it's somehow become: -> American: US GDP is so much higher than in the EU -> European: but quality of life is better here because of free healthcare etc, GDP isn't a good measure, I went to the US once and saw poors on the street! -> American: something angry about socialism ... And so on. It's the same tedious argument on every single article about EU privacy laws or taxes, and I could also copy/paste these exact comments from a Reddit post about the same issue and nobody would be the wiser.

satvikpendem 2y ago
Also add in comments (especially when talking about the DMA or similar) about how Apple isn't "truly a monopoly," that "they built the platform, they should get a cut," "video game consoles also take 30%," it'll "decrease security" if Apple allows alternative stores, etc. Some people really love the corporation like their own friend, essentially in a parasocial relationship with Apple.
- esperent 2y ago
  Yes, absolutely. Although at least those seem to be unique to articles on Apple, I don't think I could change the company to Facebook or Netflix and copy them to another post without people noticing.
atoav 2y ago
As a European who posted in said article what always gets my blood boiling is the way in which (presumably average?) US commenters will defend things like a big multinational corporation not paying taxes in the market where they are selling their product. I don't really see this even as political: Sure say that if you are the top brass in a big multinational corp, but most of us aren't that and will never be. So if they paid even just a modest amount of taxes, us regular Joes would need to pay less, if assume unchanges levels of public spending. So what I don't get is the quasi-reflexive need to shill for corporations who make it harder for outsiders to rise up in the market. I know what they say about Americans seeing themselves not as poor, but as temporarily embarassed billionaires, but how are you going to have a cut at the american dream by shilling for quasi-monopolists?

rgreekguy 2y ago

I cannot load half (?) of the article, but the situation right now is a joke, indeed. I don't remember if there are other alternative stores outside SetApp, which is still in Beta, and AltStore PAL. I have downloaded the later. It has two (2) applications and 4-5 extra sources. I have only subscribed (?) to the UTM one. Epic Games also has one, by the way. Now, AltStore has been a thing for some time now. There are many more sources (repositories of sort) out there. But, if you go to add a new one, it says "no marketplace ID was found, there are no notarized apps in this source, which is not supported in this version." Googling what is up I found that Apple has to give the greenlight for apps to get posted to the alternative store(s). Which already has been inspected by Apple. It's a joke of the kind only Apple can make. And I was just aware that alternative app stores will be a thing and Googled explicitly for them, of course I found no promotion in the App Store for them. They are too busy promoting the same apps again and again and falsely advertising stuff, as Apple does.