4 ms·

An error: maternal leave pay is capped around 1800€. So it’s rather 1/3 of salary for white collar worker. This feature makes having kids for middle class even

by lnsru 2y ago

An error: maternal leave pay is capped around 1800€. So it’s rather 1/3 of salary for white collar worker. This feature makes having kids for middle class even more expensive. A year later comes the nightmare with not enough kindergarten places. It’s a good time to start looking for kindergarten during pregnancy.

niemandhier 2y ago
We feared the same, but since the family income reduced so did the tax burden and in addition we received tax benefits for having kids. In the end we had about the same disposable income. Also: It’s free money? You are legally entitled to childcare for kids 1-3 and can sue for loss of income. Also consider a “Tagesmutter”, finding the right one can be difficult but for high income people it’s usually not too much of a problem. If you have lots of space an au-pair might be sensible, the costs can again be tax reduced to some extend.
froh 2y ago
I'd like us to take a little nuance when it comes to "middle class". tech workers rarely are "middle class". not even "upper middle class". We tend to have a contorted idea of real income percentiles. https://www.arm-und-reich.de/alle-rechner/ https://www.arm-und-reich.de/alle-rechner/
- mgraupner 2y ago
  Try buying a decent house in Germany with 4000€ netto, which puts you in the top 10% income bracket. Then come back and tell me, you're a rich person.
  - mathverse 2y ago
    German companies pay peanuts to tech workers and lost the tech decade. No surprise here.
    - mrmlz 2y ago
      And German salaries are better than Swedish salaries ;(
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        How so? Would you care to exemplify? I see a lot more unicorns in Sweden than Germany.
  - Certhas 2y ago
    Uh. Easily. Done it with considerably less. Your idea of decent might be a bit off... That's not to say that buying in Germany is absurdly difficult and expensive. It absolutely is. But if you think 4k net doesn't make you well off in average Germany you're really extremely bubbled. You won't be buying in downtown Munich, but that's very far from average Germany, and you could definitely be buying within half an hour of decent public transport to downtown munich.
    - mgraupner 2y ago
      "You won't be buying in downtown Munich, but that's very far from average Germany, and you could definitely be buying within half an hour of decent public transport to downtown Munich." - Please show me an offer for a decent house in this region.
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        "It's very easy to buy something in Munich. Just inherit." /s
      - Certhas 2y ago
        https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/154724307 https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/154724307 The mortgage is estimated at 1600€ / month, S-Bahn to Hauptbahnhof is 22 minutes. It's not super comfortable (as you'll be paying bills on top) but absolutely doable on a single 4k€ net income. It took me about 2 minutes to find this. Edit: To note, I claimed it's easily doable in the Berlin area, not in the Munich area. In the outskirts of Berlin 4k Net is more comfortably doable. Berlin is also geographically larger, so travel times will start being significantly above 30 minutes, too, though.
        lnsru 2y ago
        Fail. This property is rented to 2 families. So it’s price reduced by at least €200k compared to an empty property. You’ll never get out 2 families at once as long as they pay rent.
- Wytwwww 2y ago
  Depends on on how you define what the middle class is. Historically "middle class" never meant e.g. the middle 50% but rather the somewhat comfortable, well-off people who have assets but still have to work for a living (everyone ranging from small/medium business owners to doctors, lawyers, (sometimes) civil servants, high skilled professionals etc. The average/median person was always dirt-poor and struggling to survive. Of course in the developed countries that has changed quite a bit in the last 60+ years. Still, since it feels like we are slowly reverting to the pre WW2 status quo, I'm not sure we shouldn't entirely base it on population percentiles (instead of using some more "arbitrary" wealth/income cut-off that's adjusted by inequality)
wheels 2y ago
At least in Berlin, there's a coming surplus of day-care spots. It's a difficult problem because the pay for day-care teachers isn't great, and training one takes several years, but demand is difficult to predict several years in advance since most kids start when they're 1. But right now day-cares have actually started to have to advertise for kids. (Reference: ex-partner was a Kitaleiterin.)

by lnsru 2y ago

niemandhier 2y ago

We feared the same, but since the family income reduced so did the tax burden and in addition we received tax benefits for having kids. In the end we had about the same disposable income. Also: It’s free money? You are legally entitled to childcare for kids 1-3 and can sue for loss of income. Also consider a “Tagesmutter”, finding the right one can be difficult but for high income people it’s usually not too much of a problem. If you have lots of space an au-pair might be sensible, the costs can again be tax reduced to some extend.

froh 2y ago

I'd like us to take a little nuance when it comes to "middle class". tech workers rarely are "middle class". not even "upper middle class". We tend to have a contorted idea of real income percentiles. https://www.arm-und-reich.de/alle-rechner/ https://www.arm-und-reich.de/alle-rechner/

mgraupner 2y ago
Try buying a decent house in Germany with 4000€ netto, which puts you in the top 10% income bracket. Then come back and tell me, you're a rich person.
- mathverse 2y ago
  German companies pay peanuts to tech workers and lost the tech decade. No surprise here.
  - mrmlz 2y ago
    And German salaries are better than Swedish salaries ;(
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      How so? Would you care to exemplify? I see a lot more unicorns in Sweden than Germany.
- Certhas 2y ago
  Uh. Easily. Done it with considerably less. Your idea of decent might be a bit off... That's not to say that buying in Germany is absurdly difficult and expensive. It absolutely is. But if you think 4k net doesn't make you well off in average Germany you're really extremely bubbled. You won't be buying in downtown Munich, but that's very far from average Germany, and you could definitely be buying within half an hour of decent public transport to downtown munich.
  - mgraupner 2y ago
    "You won't be buying in downtown Munich, but that's very far from average Germany, and you could definitely be buying within half an hour of decent public transport to downtown Munich." - Please show me an offer for a decent house in this region.
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      "It's very easy to buy something in Munich. Just inherit." /s
    - Certhas 2y ago
      https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/154724307 https://www.immobilienscout24.de/expose/154724307 The mortgage is estimated at 1600€ / month, S-Bahn to Hauptbahnhof is 22 minutes. It's not super comfortable (as you'll be paying bills on top) but absolutely doable on a single 4k€ net income. It took me about 2 minutes to find this. Edit: To note, I claimed it's easily doable in the Berlin area, not in the Munich area. In the outskirts of Berlin 4k Net is more comfortably doable. Berlin is also geographically larger, so travel times will start being significantly above 30 minutes, too, though.
      - lnsru 2y ago
        Fail. This property is rented to 2 families. So it’s price reduced by at least €200k compared to an empty property. You’ll never get out 2 families at once as long as they pay rent.
Wytwwww 2y ago
Depends on on how you define what the middle class is. Historically "middle class" never meant e.g. the middle 50% but rather the somewhat comfortable, well-off people who have assets but still have to work for a living (everyone ranging from small/medium business owners to doctors, lawyers, (sometimes) civil servants, high skilled professionals etc. The average/median person was always dirt-poor and struggling to survive. Of course in the developed countries that has changed quite a bit in the last 60+ years. Still, since it feels like we are slowly reverting to the pre WW2 status quo, I'm not sure we shouldn't entirely base it on population percentiles (instead of using some more "arbitrary" wealth/income cut-off that's adjusted by inequality)

wheels 2y ago

At least in Berlin, there's a coming surplus of day-care spots. It's a difficult problem because the pay for day-care teachers isn't great, and training one takes several years, but demand is difficult to predict several years in advance since most kids start when they're 1. But right now day-cares have actually started to have to advertise for kids. (Reference: ex-partner was a Kitaleiterin.)