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This project (and others like it) are graphviz wrappers - they do some really cool stuff to emit styled .dot files that look better than writing and rendering r

by tbiehn 2y ago

This project (and others like it) are graphviz wrappers - they do some really cool stuff to emit styled .dot files that look better than writing and rendering raw gv.# Allowing specification in Python offers very little advantage - in theory you think, hey, I've got hi-lighting, autocompletion, and so on from an IDE. It'll play nice in VCS. Maybe I can interrogate orchestration layers and so on to produce dynamic views. In practice diagrams are produced by folks who might not want to use or learn python [or golang, their other implementation]. Instead a lean purpose-build DSL, maybe even an extension of graphviz dot, is easier and more portable for some audiences to pick up. Secondly, we can't JUST graft a DSL front-end onto these tools because the styled components are baked into the project. My personal experience with layout engines is that they work OK for very small architecture diagrams, but become ugly or inelegant at useful scales. I (and the teams I've worked with) settle on draw.io, either the desktop app, or committed as part of confluence, as the best way to describe intent/design - and rendering graphviz with a style up top for anything dynamic. Would welcome seeing a true extension to the dot language that can unlock reasoning engines (like to do threat modeling) and render-time styling.

almostgotcaught 2y ago
> In practice diagrams are produced by folks who might not want to use or learn python [or golang, their other implementation]. Instead a lean purpose-build DSL, maybe even an extension of graphviz dot, is easier and more portable for some audiences to pick up This is so absolutely ludicrously absurdly wrong that it's comical. No one wants to learn a new programming language. Cf. all of the old algol languages that are still around and all their "replacements" that are no longer around. Some people (not even a majority) are willing to learn a new language if compelled by force or incentive. Diagramming is absolutely not enough incentive to learn a new language.
- cheeze 2y ago
  I agree with both of you, but I still don't want to use Python to generate my diagrams. Diagrams are a visual thing. I prefer a visual designer. I can send that to some random nontechnical person for a presentation and they can edit them, etc. I find with things like this, it works pretty well until you want to do something off the beaten path, then it's a pain where you're trying to figure out how to get it to render like you want it to. Reminds me of the ole "just move it 2px to the right" in the CSS of yesteryear
- irjustin 2y ago
  > This is so absolutely ludicrously absurdly wrong that it's comical. Quite the hyperbole, but I do agree that python isn't so wrong of a choice, but the problem is diagrams eventually interact with non-technical people and that's where it gets tricky. I LOVE mermaid, d2, but at somepoint I hand the diagrams off to someone who knows nothing about markdown and honestly they shouldn't have to know it to interact with a diagram. All these "diagrams as code" are great for an isolated group. I can pump them out WAY faster than manual drawing programs (draw.io, etc), but then run into the iterop wall w/ other teams. I'd LOVE a place that could be like AWS's graphical editor that sort of goes in between the two. It's a hard problem I 100% agree and would require yet another DSL, ugh.
- baq 2y ago
  I upvoted you for the hyperbole but absolutely don't agree. People who don't want to learn a new special purpose language are basically saying that 'I've got a hammer and everything is a nail' is fine, which is (to your point) absurd. Languages are tools, use tools to solve problems the tools were designed to solve. Where I do agree is what you haven't said clearly: it isn't obvious what problems 'diagrams as code' solve. The idea is cool and I've used plantuml with some success, but in the end the diagram is supposed to be consumed visually (including changes - to preserve spatial relationships between versions).
- v3ss0n 2y ago
  I love python and I found diagrams fine but after tried for a few time , it comes down to me that diagrams as code only good for diagrams that are already sketched out on how it would look like in design tools like draw.io . Diagrams need a Visual editor. Designing using code is very hard to visualize how it will look like by just looking at code and running , editing , looking back is not fun. Since code provides easy versioning and search and replace , refactoring is easy , what we need is visual editor that generates code and so we can keep that code versioned in github.
darau1 2y ago
I have a love/hate relationship with diagrams, and diagrams-as-code-things (plantuml, mermaid, etc). As a programmer, I find myself trying to turn everything in to a software project: everything must be version control-able. Same with these diagramming solutions -- except I nearly never know what I want the digram to look like, when I start "writing" it. This means I nearly always end up on something like lucid.app just sketching out the solution, and thinking to myself that I'll turn it in to a beautiful diagram with one of the earlier solutions, later -- that never happens. So now I have a diagram I can link to (yay), but can't version control (boo). Then, I discovered excalidraw[1]: it lets me sketch like lucid, but isn't nearly as polished or robust: you can throw together simple shapes, draw lines between them, and the lines stick to the shapes, so you can move them around and the lines move too. You can also group things together, and draw freehand, and also include text -- what more do you need? The cool thing about excalidraw is that you can share your drawings, and export them as SVG files -- yay! I can version them again. You can also self-host it, which is a massive plus in my book. /rant [1]: https://excalidraw.com/ https://excalidraw.com/
- tbiehn 2y ago
  Nice (and MIT Licensed!) - I'll give this a shot. Another thing these types of tools bring is multiplayer support. Which I found my distributed teams really benefiting from over time.
  - worldsayshi 2y ago
    Excalidraw seems to boil down the important parts of Miro into an even neater and user friendly package. And it seems really modular and have a really interesting API as well. You can use it as a react component for example.
- cassianoleal 2y ago
  I've been mostly using the VS Code Excalidraw plugin. Any file with name ending on `.excalidraw.svg` or `.excalidraw.png` is an Excalidraw-editable image of the respective format. This means you can save it alongside your markdown docs and embed them directly, but also edit the exact same file on the IDE.
dec0dedab0de 2y ago
At a glance this looks pretty nice for people like me who already know python, hate doing things manually, and have to make and update diagrams sometimes. Sure it’s probably not worth learning python for, but it is a python library, it’s for pythonistas, not everyone.
learn_more 2y ago
See https://Schematix.com https://Schematix.com Has a graph query capability which is like a reasoning engine. And beyond that, can run simulations on the models. Multi user, version control with branch and merge, time shifting, etc. It's for diagramming whole environments, not just discrete diagrams.
- UltraSane 2y ago
  This is incredibly cool! I've been using Neo4j to hack something like this together but the UI on this is amazing. I honestly believe that tools like this should be as fundamental to IT as double entry bookkeeping is to accounting and CAD is to engineering and blueprints are to construction.
tmcdos 2y ago
If you decide to try the visual language DRAKON (https://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/ https://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/) you will notice that it always produces non-ugly diagrams by literally not allowing you to draw anything ugly. It has some basic rules how to compose the diagrams but once you get the concept - everyone will love your diagrams. Here are a few examples of my diagrams - https://postimg.cc/gallery/Z4SbScg https://postimg.cc/gallery/Z4SbScg

by tbiehn 2y ago

almostgotcaught 2y ago

> In practice diagrams are produced by folks who might not want to use or learn python [or golang, their other implementation]. Instead a lean purpose-build DSL, maybe even an extension of graphviz dot, is easier and more portable for some audiences to pick up This is so absolutely ludicrously absurdly wrong that it's comical. No one wants to learn a new programming language. Cf. all of the old algol languages that are still around and all their "replacements" that are no longer around. Some people (not even a majority) are willing to learn a new language if compelled by force or incentive. Diagramming is absolutely not enough incentive to learn a new language.

cheeze 2y ago
I agree with both of you, but I still don't want to use Python to generate my diagrams. Diagrams are a visual thing. I prefer a visual designer. I can send that to some random nontechnical person for a presentation and they can edit them, etc. I find with things like this, it works pretty well until you want to do something off the beaten path, then it's a pain where you're trying to figure out how to get it to render like you want it to. Reminds me of the ole "just move it 2px to the right" in the CSS of yesteryear
irjustin 2y ago
> This is so absolutely ludicrously absurdly wrong that it's comical. Quite the hyperbole, but I do agree that python isn't so wrong of a choice, but the problem is diagrams eventually interact with non-technical people and that's where it gets tricky. I LOVE mermaid, d2, but at somepoint I hand the diagrams off to someone who knows nothing about markdown and honestly they shouldn't have to know it to interact with a diagram. All these "diagrams as code" are great for an isolated group. I can pump them out WAY faster than manual drawing programs (draw.io, etc), but then run into the iterop wall w/ other teams. I'd LOVE a place that could be like AWS's graphical editor that sort of goes in between the two. It's a hard problem I 100% agree and would require yet another DSL, ugh.
baq 2y ago
I upvoted you for the hyperbole but absolutely don't agree. People who don't want to learn a new special purpose language are basically saying that 'I've got a hammer and everything is a nail' is fine, which is (to your point) absurd. Languages are tools, use tools to solve problems the tools were designed to solve. Where I do agree is what you haven't said clearly: it isn't obvious what problems 'diagrams as code' solve. The idea is cool and I've used plantuml with some success, but in the end the diagram is supposed to be consumed visually (including changes - to preserve spatial relationships between versions).
v3ss0n 2y ago
I love python and I found diagrams fine but after tried for a few time , it comes down to me that diagrams as code only good for diagrams that are already sketched out on how it would look like in design tools like draw.io . Diagrams need a Visual editor. Designing using code is very hard to visualize how it will look like by just looking at code and running , editing , looking back is not fun. Since code provides easy versioning and search and replace , refactoring is easy , what we need is visual editor that generates code and so we can keep that code versioned in github.

darau1 2y ago

I have a love/hate relationship with diagrams, and diagrams-as-code-things (plantuml, mermaid, etc). As a programmer, I find myself trying to turn everything in to a software project: everything must be version control-able. Same with these diagramming solutions -- except I nearly never know what I want the digram to look like, when I start "writing" it. This means I nearly always end up on something like lucid.app just sketching out the solution, and thinking to myself that I'll turn it in to a beautiful diagram with one of the earlier solutions, later -- that never happens. So now I have a diagram I can link to (yay), but can't version control (boo). Then, I discovered excalidraw[1]: it lets me sketch like lucid, but isn't nearly as polished or robust: you can throw together simple shapes, draw lines between them, and the lines stick to the shapes, so you can move them around and the lines move too. You can also group things together, and draw freehand, and also include text -- what more do you need? The cool thing about excalidraw is that you can share your drawings, and export them as SVG files -- yay! I can version them again. You can also self-host it, which is a massive plus in my book. /rant [1]: https://excalidraw.com/ https://excalidraw.com/

tbiehn 2y ago
Nice (and MIT Licensed!) - I'll give this a shot. Another thing these types of tools bring is multiplayer support. Which I found my distributed teams really benefiting from over time.
- worldsayshi 2y ago
  Excalidraw seems to boil down the important parts of Miro into an even neater and user friendly package. And it seems really modular and have a really interesting API as well. You can use it as a react component for example.
cassianoleal 2y ago
I've been mostly using the VS Code Excalidraw plugin. Any file with name ending on `.excalidraw.svg` or `.excalidraw.png` is an Excalidraw-editable image of the respective format. This means you can save it alongside your markdown docs and embed them directly, but also edit the exact same file on the IDE.

dec0dedab0de 2y ago

At a glance this looks pretty nice for people like me who already know python, hate doing things manually, and have to make and update diagrams sometimes. Sure it’s probably not worth learning python for, but it is a python library, it’s for pythonistas, not everyone.

learn_more 2y ago

See https://Schematix.com https://Schematix.com Has a graph query capability which is like a reasoning engine. And beyond that, can run simulations on the models. Multi user, version control with branch and merge, time shifting, etc. It's for diagramming whole environments, not just discrete diagrams.

UltraSane 2y ago
This is incredibly cool! I've been using Neo4j to hack something like this together but the UI on this is amazing. I honestly believe that tools like this should be as fundamental to IT as double entry bookkeeping is to accounting and CAD is to engineering and blueprints are to construction.

tmcdos 2y ago

If you decide to try the visual language DRAKON (https://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/ https://drakon-editor.sourceforge.net/) you will notice that it always produces non-ugly diagrams by literally not allowing you to draw anything ugly. It has some basic rules how to compose the diagrams but once you get the concept - everyone will love your diagrams. Here are a few examples of my diagrams - https://postimg.cc/gallery/Z4SbScg https://postimg.cc/gallery/Z4SbScg