9 ms·

Deemed “as less productive” by whom? We have a free labour market, if it was true that NYT underpaid Black workers for the same productivity, they could easily

by slt2021 2y ago

Deemed “as less productive” by whom? We have a free labour market, if it was true that NYT underpaid Black workers for the same productivity, they could easily jump ship to other company and make more $$. What is stopping “black people” from escaping the supposed inequality at NYT and making more money elsewhere ????

ceejayoz 2y ago
> Deemed “as less productive” by whom? You've attempted to explain away pay gaps by saying it's because of lower roles and/or lower productivity, but that's just the same problem with an extra step. Why are they in lower roles? Why are they assessed as less productive? Are they inherently dumb/lazy/bad, or are we just back to "the pay gap exists because of biases" again? > What is stopping “black people” from escaping the supposed inequality at NYT and making more money elsewhere ???? Black NYT employees are likely very well aware that the biases they encounter are not unique to the NYT.
- slt2021 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - bdangubic 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - slt2021 2y ago
      you can do a little scientific experiment yourself: Change your linkedin location to San Francisco, add the buzz words and $big_tech_company to your profile, make sure you are of under-represented minority in profile, and watch recruiters banging your door and offering to apply and headhunt you for pay raise
    - akoboldfrying 2y ago
      See, I look at what you wrote and draw the mirror-image conclusion: "Here is a person who would prefer to shame others for being 'impolite' than let them say out loud what is obvious to literally anyone." The fact that the situation is as GP described is undeniable. But there can be reasons why things are this way that extend beyond what the racists of yore believed about genetics. Most obviously: Not all subgroups of white people are equally represented in tech either. (When was the last time you were in a team where the majority hailed from Appalachia?) But actual investigation and remediation can't begin until we can first point at reality and describe it as it currently is.
    - Dylan16807 2y ago
      I think you're reading that the wrong way. Rather than "talented engineers can already be hard to find, now divide that by 20".
- l33t7332273 2y ago
  >but that's just the same problem with an extra step I think it’s a totally different problem. The problem no longer is about how group X is compensated for doing job Y, but why group X is doing job Y in the first place.
janalsncm 2y ago
In practice, we use the term “labor market” because those words tend to go together, but if we take a moment to stop and imagine it was an actual “market” it would be a pretty crappy one. Imagine walking into a grocery store and milk was priced as “between $5 and $15”. You need to haggle on the final number. And that’s if you’re lucky to live in a state where prices have to be posted at all! You also don’t really know what’s in it. There is also considerable investment whether or not you end up liking the price. (Imagine you have to stand in line for an hour before you can even begin haggling.) Anyone who has applied for a job knows that switching companies isn’t free, as it would be in a “free market”. There’s any number of outside factors that could prevent it. And switching too often is also viewed negatively, which is not true of e.g. shares of Amazon.
- slt2021 2y ago
  could not disagree more. Switching jobs in tech is literally free pay raise. top tier tech worker can jump jobs every 2 years and get ~30% bump every time. You are actually leaving money on the table if you dont switch jobs (in tech specifically) - because jobs are comparable to each other.
  - janalsncm 2y ago
    I’m not sure which of my points you’re disagreeing with exactly.
- BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
  I think this image hits the nail on the head. Only thing missing is that markets will only sell to you if you live within an hours commute so you may need to move having to a different city, leaving friends/family behind to even try if the milk at another market is worth it. And sometimes the milk turns out to be orange juice...
anigbrowl 2y ago
We have a free labour market Do we? Your spelling suggests you're not from the US, so I wonder how familiar you are with market conditions. Gotta say your arguments here and above come off as a little shallow.
- slt2021 2y ago
  do you have an argument to the contrary, besides spelling?
  - anigbrowl 2y ago
    I don't see why I should just accept your premise at face value.
    - slt2021 2y ago
      My argument is we have at-will employment which means you are free to work at any company willing to hire you, and free to leave and join elsewhere if you find a better place. I certainly benefited myself from at-will employment and free labour market. Do you have a reason to believe the labor market is not free? Like do tech workers in NYT experience slavery/involuntary labor or industry gatekeeping of some sort?
      - anigbrowl 2y ago
        [flagged]
UncleMeat 2y ago
I think it is interesting that people are so quick to understand that measuring productivity is difficult when it comes to software engineering metrics or how promotions can be scuttled by things like internal politics but when it comes to macro scale things suddenly we assume that populations are being accurately evaluated for productivity.
- tightbookkeeper 2y ago
  Exactly. A few years ago everyone outside of tech was excited about a study from Google showing that “soft skills” were more important for career advancement for engineers within Google. And it’s almost tautological: people who are good at playing organizational games succeed in the organization. Actually measuring engineering productivity isn’t solved at all.
bjourne 2y ago
People aren't spherical objects. People may rightfully fear being mistreated by horrible bosses and hence stay in jobs that doesn't maximize salary.
- slt2021 2y ago
  to me, this is actually an argument in favor of becoming a spherical object, so that you can easily switch job in case your boss is horrible. You don't want to be stuck under a bad boss, do you? or do you want to take a gamble that each manager will be perfect (manager can change without your control as well due to restructuring)? if Corporation treats employees as a perfectly replaceable unit of a Human Resource, then I will treat them as a fungible unit of a Job Description

ceejayoz 2y ago

> Deemed “as less productive” by whom? You've attempted to explain away pay gaps by saying it's because of lower roles and/or lower productivity, but that's just the same problem with an extra step. Why are they in lower roles? Why are they assessed as less productive? Are they inherently dumb/lazy/bad, or are we just back to "the pay gap exists because of biases" again? > What is stopping “black people” from escaping the supposed inequality at NYT and making more money elsewhere ???? Black NYT employees are likely very well aware that the biases they encounter are not unique to the NYT.

slt2021 2y ago
[flagged]
- bdangubic 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - slt2021 2y ago
    you can do a little scientific experiment yourself: Change your linkedin location to San Francisco, add the buzz words and $big_tech_company to your profile, make sure you are of under-represented minority in profile, and watch recruiters banging your door and offering to apply and headhunt you for pay raise
  - akoboldfrying 2y ago
    See, I look at what you wrote and draw the mirror-image conclusion: "Here is a person who would prefer to shame others for being 'impolite' than let them say out loud what is obvious to literally anyone." The fact that the situation is as GP described is undeniable. But there can be reasons why things are this way that extend beyond what the racists of yore believed about genetics. Most obviously: Not all subgroups of white people are equally represented in tech either. (When was the last time you were in a team where the majority hailed from Appalachia?) But actual investigation and remediation can't begin until we can first point at reality and describe it as it currently is.
  - Dylan16807 2y ago
    I think you're reading that the wrong way. Rather than "talented engineers can already be hard to find, now divide that by 20".
l33t7332273 2y ago
>but that's just the same problem with an extra step I think it’s a totally different problem. The problem no longer is about how group X is compensated for doing job Y, but why group X is doing job Y in the first place.

janalsncm 2y ago

In practice, we use the term “labor market” because those words tend to go together, but if we take a moment to stop and imagine it was an actual “market” it would be a pretty crappy one. Imagine walking into a grocery store and milk was priced as “between $5 and $15”. You need to haggle on the final number. And that’s if you’re lucky to live in a state where prices have to be posted at all! You also don’t really know what’s in it. There is also considerable investment whether or not you end up liking the price. (Imagine you have to stand in line for an hour before you can even begin haggling.) Anyone who has applied for a job knows that switching companies isn’t free, as it would be in a “free market”. There’s any number of outside factors that could prevent it. And switching too often is also viewed negatively, which is not true of e.g. shares of Amazon.

slt2021 2y ago
could not disagree more. Switching jobs in tech is literally free pay raise. top tier tech worker can jump jobs every 2 years and get ~30% bump every time. You are actually leaving money on the table if you dont switch jobs (in tech specifically) - because jobs are comparable to each other.
- janalsncm 2y ago
  I’m not sure which of my points you’re disagreeing with exactly.
BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
I think this image hits the nail on the head. Only thing missing is that markets will only sell to you if you live within an hours commute so you may need to move having to a different city, leaving friends/family behind to even try if the milk at another market is worth it. And sometimes the milk turns out to be orange juice...

anigbrowl 2y ago

We have a free labour market Do we? Your spelling suggests you're not from the US, so I wonder how familiar you are with market conditions. Gotta say your arguments here and above come off as a little shallow.

slt2021 2y ago
do you have an argument to the contrary, besides spelling?
- anigbrowl 2y ago
  I don't see why I should just accept your premise at face value.
  - slt2021 2y ago
    My argument is we have at-will employment which means you are free to work at any company willing to hire you, and free to leave and join elsewhere if you find a better place. I certainly benefited myself from at-will employment and free labour market. Do you have a reason to believe the labor market is not free? Like do tech workers in NYT experience slavery/involuntary labor or industry gatekeeping of some sort?
    - anigbrowl 2y ago
      [flagged]

UncleMeat 2y ago

I think it is interesting that people are so quick to understand that measuring productivity is difficult when it comes to software engineering metrics or how promotions can be scuttled by things like internal politics but when it comes to macro scale things suddenly we assume that populations are being accurately evaluated for productivity.

tightbookkeeper 2y ago
Exactly. A few years ago everyone outside of tech was excited about a study from Google showing that “soft skills” were more important for career advancement for engineers within Google. And it’s almost tautological: people who are good at playing organizational games succeed in the organization. Actually measuring engineering productivity isn’t solved at all.

bjourne 2y ago

People aren't spherical objects. People may rightfully fear being mistreated by horrible bosses and hence stay in jobs that doesn't maximize salary.

slt2021 2y ago
to me, this is actually an argument in favor of becoming a spherical object, so that you can easily switch job in case your boss is horrible. You don't want to be stuck under a bad boss, do you? or do you want to take a gamble that each manager will be perfect (manager can change without your control as well due to restructuring)? if Corporation treats employees as a perfectly replaceable unit of a Human Resource, then I will treat them as a fungible unit of a Job Description