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Is this a goal to which we should aspire? I’m a former evangelical, now atheist and I thought that it was but now I’m not so sure. Darwin’s Cathedral made me re

Is this a goal to which we should aspire? I’m a former evangelical, now atheist and I thought that it was but now I’m not so sure. Darwin’s Cathedral made me rethink this position and I encourage you to read it.

ruthmarx 2y ago
[flagged]
- card_zero 2y ago
  I thought I'd be fair and read the Wikipedia page about this (rather old) book, and see what it even says. Wilson posits that religions are adaptive systems that have evolved to enhance their adherents' survival and reproductive success. [...] mechanisms that promote group cooperation and cohesion. He mentions Balinese water temples, which had (have?) a practical, municipal function in regulating water distribution for farming. There's an implication about the connection between religion and morality. Religious types love the connection between religion and morality (almost as much as they love claiming that non-religion is just another religion). And humanists make the valid point that the connection is weak, and that we can have better morality on our own without getting any sky-faries involved. However, practically, given these ancient worldwide memes serving a moral function, maybe it would be bad for them to vanish overnight. So in that sense religion is doing some good. But it won't vanish overnight anyway, so the question is really whether it would be harmful for it to be replaced with reasoned morality.
  - pbhjpbhj 2y ago
    >Religious types love the connection between religion and morality // I can only speak to my experience of Christians (in the UK, of a broad swathe of denominations), but a central tenet is that all people are sinners. Never have I heard it expressed that Christians are more moral than others except in strawman arguments suggesting that the immortality of a/some Christians demonstrates God does not exist. Indeed even in a small parish CofE church in rural England {mainstream, not progressive, conservative} I've heard the opposite preached. Perhaps some Christian leaders have expressed this view and it passed me by? Maybe it's a Roman Catholic thing? Many things that are more reasonable to believe are false, I don't see how 'we could be more moral without religion' proves anything?
    - card_zero 2y ago
      Do you mean to say that Christians are less moral than others, and the importance of Christianity is to keep these reprobates in check? Even so, this is still a connection. Unless what you're saying is "the church believes Christianity makes people bad", which would be fascinating to hear about.
      - pbhjpbhj 2y ago
        The "opposite" I was talking about is "[some] atheists are no less good, some are paragons of morality...". The point the speaker is trying to make in those sermons is that truth is the vital thing, not the results of the truth. That we don't have to get good before coming to God, as they are for sinners. Certainly some classes of people confessing to be followers of Christ are abjectly immoral... love your neighbour! In one of the minor epistles James says 'true religion is taking care of widows and orphans'. If the Church as a whole resembled either of those edicts then the World would look much rosier imo.

ruthmarx 2y ago

[flagged]

card_zero 2y ago
I thought I'd be fair and read the Wikipedia page about this (rather old) book, and see what it even says. Wilson posits that religions are adaptive systems that have evolved to enhance their adherents' survival and reproductive success. [...] mechanisms that promote group cooperation and cohesion. He mentions Balinese water temples, which had (have?) a practical, municipal function in regulating water distribution for farming. There's an implication about the connection between religion and morality. Religious types love the connection between religion and morality (almost as much as they love claiming that non-religion is just another religion). And humanists make the valid point that the connection is weak, and that we can have better morality on our own without getting any sky-faries involved. However, practically, given these ancient worldwide memes serving a moral function, maybe it would be bad for them to vanish overnight. So in that sense religion is doing some good. But it won't vanish overnight anyway, so the question is really whether it would be harmful for it to be replaced with reasoned morality.
- pbhjpbhj 2y ago
  >Religious types love the connection between religion and morality // I can only speak to my experience of Christians (in the UK, of a broad swathe of denominations), but a central tenet is that all people are sinners. Never have I heard it expressed that Christians are more moral than others except in strawman arguments suggesting that the immortality of a/some Christians demonstrates God does not exist. Indeed even in a small parish CofE church in rural England {mainstream, not progressive, conservative} I've heard the opposite preached. Perhaps some Christian leaders have expressed this view and it passed me by? Maybe it's a Roman Catholic thing? Many things that are more reasonable to believe are false, I don't see how 'we could be more moral without religion' proves anything?
  - card_zero 2y ago
    Do you mean to say that Christians are less moral than others, and the importance of Christianity is to keep these reprobates in check? Even so, this is still a connection. Unless what you're saying is "the church believes Christianity makes people bad", which would be fascinating to hear about.
    - pbhjpbhj 2y ago
      The "opposite" I was talking about is "[some] atheists are no less good, some are paragons of morality...". The point the speaker is trying to make in those sermons is that truth is the vital thing, not the results of the truth. That we don't have to get good before coming to God, as they are for sinners. Certainly some classes of people confessing to be followers of Christ are abjectly immoral... love your neighbour! In one of the minor epistles James says 'true religion is taking care of widows and orphans'. If the Church as a whole resembled either of those edicts then the World would look much rosier imo.