4 ms·

Yes, the Nuremberg defense - "I was just following orders" - is one approach. It's a lot easier than applying back pressure, fighting for your reports, or quit

Yes, the Nuremberg defense - "I was just following orders" - is one approach. It's a lot easier than applying back pressure, fighting for your reports, or quitting in solidarity. "Sorry, Hugo and Maryna, you two only got the Fields medal while Anton and Alain got a Nobel Prize, so we'll have to let you go for your under-performance."

deleted 2y ago
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Arainach 2y ago
Here's how this works in practice: * Corporate says "here are the buckets. They should match at the VP level since that's a large pile of people" * VPs tell their Directors to match these buckets, who recurse further * L1/2 Manager Alice says "my team is too small, this isn't how statistics work, I want an exception" * Problem #1: the teams with actual low performers will often make similar claims * If the claim actually gets escalated all the way to the VP, the VP says "tough, fit the buckets". * Alice is now a troublemaker in VP/Director's eyes * If Alice and everyone who feels the same way quits in protest, nothing changes except that the org is full of yes men, none of whom are even trying to push for changes in the system any more.
- eesmith 2y ago
  So it's better that Alice stays because ... why?
  - Arainach 2y ago
    Because Alice is a good manager who cares about their reports and is otherwise supporting them, advocating for them, pushing for changes to team culture, etc.? The fact that they can't control this one thing does not mean that they should just abandon the whole company. If Alice finds a company where they can get similar compensation for similar workload without the forced bucketing, perhaps that's a good idea for their mental health, but Alice leaving is a large negative for the team.
    - eesmith 2y ago
      I wrote 'applying back pressure, fighting for your reports, or quitting in solidarity'. Alice leaving was the third of these. 'advocating for them' and 'pushing for changes' are parts of the first two. When back pressure and fighting for your reports does not work, what do you do then? As you wrote it, Alice leaving is a large negative for the company to, making it full of yes men, unable to change away from a collision course.
      - Arainach 2y ago
        >When back pressure and fighting for your reports does not work, what do you do then? Continue fighting the battles you can win. Do your job and do it well. Changing jobs is hard, stressful, unavailable to many people for a variety of reasons, and not guaranteed to improve things. Particularly once you start becoming senior and in management. If I left a job every time I was faced with a bad situation I would never built up the soft skills or connections to be any good at any connection. Particularly as a first-level manager, where 80% of your job is delivering messages you had no say in but have to own anyway.
        eesmith 2y ago
        The comment I replied to at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42039995 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42039995 was only about following orders, with zero mention of fighting any sort of battle. My response was meant to be interpreted as doing something other than appeasement, which includes "fighting the battles you can win."
  - marcosdumay 2y ago
    Nah, it's better on the long term if she goes work somewhere better. But changing jobs doesn't happen immediately, and "somewhere better" may be very hard to find.

deleted 2y ago

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Arainach 2y ago

Here's how this works in practice: * Corporate says "here are the buckets. They should match at the VP level since that's a large pile of people" * VPs tell their Directors to match these buckets, who recurse further * L1/2 Manager Alice says "my team is too small, this isn't how statistics work, I want an exception" * Problem #1: the teams with actual low performers will often make similar claims * If the claim actually gets escalated all the way to the VP, the VP says "tough, fit the buckets". * Alice is now a troublemaker in VP/Director's eyes * If Alice and everyone who feels the same way quits in protest, nothing changes except that the org is full of yes men, none of whom are even trying to push for changes in the system any more.

eesmith 2y ago
So it's better that Alice stays because ... why?
- Arainach 2y ago
  Because Alice is a good manager who cares about their reports and is otherwise supporting them, advocating for them, pushing for changes to team culture, etc.? The fact that they can't control this one thing does not mean that they should just abandon the whole company. If Alice finds a company where they can get similar compensation for similar workload without the forced bucketing, perhaps that's a good idea for their mental health, but Alice leaving is a large negative for the team.
  - eesmith 2y ago
    I wrote 'applying back pressure, fighting for your reports, or quitting in solidarity'. Alice leaving was the third of these. 'advocating for them' and 'pushing for changes' are parts of the first two. When back pressure and fighting for your reports does not work, what do you do then? As you wrote it, Alice leaving is a large negative for the company to, making it full of yes men, unable to change away from a collision course.
    - Arainach 2y ago
      >When back pressure and fighting for your reports does not work, what do you do then? Continue fighting the battles you can win. Do your job and do it well. Changing jobs is hard, stressful, unavailable to many people for a variety of reasons, and not guaranteed to improve things. Particularly once you start becoming senior and in management. If I left a job every time I was faced with a bad situation I would never built up the soft skills or connections to be any good at any connection. Particularly as a first-level manager, where 80% of your job is delivering messages you had no say in but have to own anyway.
      - eesmith 2y ago
        The comment I replied to at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42039995 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42039995 was only about following orders, with zero mention of fighting any sort of battle. My response was meant to be interpreted as doing something other than appeasement, which includes "fighting the battles you can win."
- marcosdumay 2y ago
  Nah, it's better on the long term if she goes work somewhere better. But changing jobs doesn't happen immediately, and "somewhere better" may be very hard to find.