4 ms·

> systemd is sort of like if microsoft word took on system init. In the beginning it was small, but now it is web based and does videoconferencing. It's actual

> systemd is sort of like if microsoft word took on system init. In the beginning it was small, but now it is web based and does videoconferencing. It's actually a suite of tools that do solve individual problems comprehensively. Not as small as the programs in coreutils, but still not a huge monolith.

m463 2y ago
I don't agree with comprehensively. for example timesyncd is barebones and not super accurate when it comes to timekeeping, while chrony and ntp actually manage the system time. similar - systemd-boot is barebones, systemd-networkd is barebones (but has gotten more MVP-featured in a busybox way), etc Maybe 10 more years and everyone will be used to things, and people won't be arguing about chesterton's fence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton#Chesterton's_fence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton#Chesterton's_...
egorfine 2y ago
> It's actually a suite of tools It's a suite of tools created with hate to the unix philosophy. That's something that all of them have in common. There was no reason to create systemd timers as cron worked just fine for decades.
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  > with hate to the unix philosophy It's a suit of a tools each doing one thing and communicating together via a message bus. How exactly is that hating the "unix philosophy" whatever that means? From where I stand, it's extremely close to the way Unix has ever done things. The design is even directly lifted from the boot system of a certified Unix.
  - egorfine 2y ago
    To me it looks exactly like ann opposite of suite of independent tools.
    - consteval 2y ago
      Okay. How? They're all individual binaries that just happen to use the systemd name. You realize systemd isn't just one big program, right? It's like 30 programs, all independent of each other, with integrations to other programs.
      - egorfine 2y ago
        I believe they were not created to solve real problems. No one wanted a cron replacement, really. Thus they are created out of political or ego reasons.
        consteval 2y ago
        This is purely speculative. From my talks with sys admins, all the ones I've met greatly appreciate systemd. Also timers and cron have different requirements, notably timers can do much more. Also timers is purely optional and most distros DO use cron. There's a major disconnect, I've seen, from what systemd haters proclaim and what is reality. Nobody is forcing anything, you don't have to use 99% of systemd, it's not a monolith, and many people do want the features. To be clear, this isn't my opinion - this is the truth. You can find all this out by perusing the repos and mailing list.
        egorfine 2y ago
        > greatly appreciate systemd Really? I have yet to see one. Kids, maybe. Experiences sysadmins may appreciate systemd as PID1, but almost everything else is pure cancer. > There's a major disconnect, I've seen, from what systemd haters proclaim and what is reality. I can certainly agree with that. > Nobody is forcing anything ... until distro maintainers decide to move crucial tasks to systemd-timers from cron, change resolved to systemd-resolved, switch from ntpd to whatever its called, remove sudo in favor of another systemd thing, etc. But sure, you are free to not use any. Except the only *nix thing left is the Linux kernel. Soon to be systemd-kernel.
        2y ago
- imtringued 2y ago
  Cron is probably the worst example you could have chosen. For my uses cases that, you know, involve manually running jobs to see if they actually work, cron has been broken for decades and is still to this day basically unusable. Systemd timers work far better than cron.
  - egorfine 2y ago
    If it's broken for decades, what took us so long to change it and who gave systemd swamp the honor to provide the one and only right solution?

m463 2y ago

I don't agree with comprehensively. for example timesyncd is barebones and not super accurate when it comes to timekeeping, while chrony and ntp actually manage the system time. similar - systemd-boot is barebones, systemd-networkd is barebones (but has gotten more MVP-featured in a busybox way), etc Maybe 10 more years and everyone will be used to things, and people won't be arguing about chesterton's fence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton#Chesterton's_fence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G._K._Chesterton#Chesterton's_...

egorfine 2y ago

> It's actually a suite of tools It's a suite of tools created with hate to the unix philosophy. That's something that all of them have in common. There was no reason to create systemd timers as cron worked just fine for decades.

RandomThoughts3 2y ago
> with hate to the unix philosophy It's a suit of a tools each doing one thing and communicating together via a message bus. How exactly is that hating the "unix philosophy" whatever that means? From where I stand, it's extremely close to the way Unix has ever done things. The design is even directly lifted from the boot system of a certified Unix.
- egorfine 2y ago
  To me it looks exactly like ann opposite of suite of independent tools.
  - consteval 2y ago
    Okay. How? They're all individual binaries that just happen to use the systemd name. You realize systemd isn't just one big program, right? It's like 30 programs, all independent of each other, with integrations to other programs.
    - egorfine 2y ago
      I believe they were not created to solve real problems. No one wanted a cron replacement, really. Thus they are created out of political or ego reasons.
      - consteval 2y ago
        This is purely speculative. From my talks with sys admins, all the ones I've met greatly appreciate systemd. Also timers and cron have different requirements, notably timers can do much more. Also timers is purely optional and most distros DO use cron. There's a major disconnect, I've seen, from what systemd haters proclaim and what is reality. Nobody is forcing anything, you don't have to use 99% of systemd, it's not a monolith, and many people do want the features. To be clear, this isn't my opinion - this is the truth. You can find all this out by perusing the repos and mailing list.
        egorfine 2y ago
        > greatly appreciate systemd Really? I have yet to see one. Kids, maybe. Experiences sysadmins may appreciate systemd as PID1, but almost everything else is pure cancer. > There's a major disconnect, I've seen, from what systemd haters proclaim and what is reality. I can certainly agree with that. > Nobody is forcing anything ... until distro maintainers decide to move crucial tasks to systemd-timers from cron, change resolved to systemd-resolved, switch from ntpd to whatever its called, remove sudo in favor of another systemd thing, etc. But sure, you are free to not use any. Except the only *nix thing left is the Linux kernel. Soon to be systemd-kernel.
        2y ago
imtringued 2y ago
Cron is probably the worst example you could have chosen. For my uses cases that, you know, involve manually running jobs to see if they actually work, cron has been broken for decades and is still to this day basically unusable. Systemd timers work far better than cron.
- egorfine 2y ago
  If it's broken for decades, what took us so long to change it and who gave systemd swamp the honor to provide the one and only right solution?