5 ms·

i don't notice anything good systemd does for me, just where it interferes, and that's a constant annoyance, a few days a week.

viraptor 2y ago
Can you link some upstream issues you raised about the big annoyances?
- exe34 2y ago
  not many people enjoy bikeshedding.
- rjzzleep 2y ago
  Random example. They randomly broke suspect-then-hibernate then the community manager gaslit people into trying to make them believe they don’t actually need the feature in the way it’s used and then silently acknowledged that their fix is broken after all. This is a common pattern by the way. But easily the most irritating thing for me is the simple issue that you used to be able to just go to /var/log/lastlog to see what failed during the last boot and that just the other day I had to spend hours figuring what broke in the system that made journalctl not log properly. In the end I had to reinstall all currently installed packages. https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/zczdnq/systemctl_suspendthenhibernate_not_working_anymore/?rdt=49489 https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/zczdnq/systemctl...
  - viraptor 2y ago
    So there was a bug and bad interaction and everyone on non-rolling system didn't even notice, because it's been fixed in 2 months? (Nov to Jan) It sucks, but it's been fixed for almost 2 years at this point. For the last boot you can use "journalctl -b -1" as long as you enabled persistent logs. If you ended up reinstalling everything, I don't think we can say whether that was a systemd related issue or not. I was curious what the current daily issues are.
  - strken 2y ago
    The linked GitHub issue is one of the most aggravating exchanges I've ever read: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/25269 https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/25269. I don't understand how you can read someone telling you that they want to suspend and then hibernate after a set duration, but A) not understand why this would be desirable, B) not understand that this is compatible with also hibernating at low battery, and C) not understand your own lack of comprehension.
    - wongogue 2y ago
      What the issue author is asking for is also the default behavior of Windows (which is developed by his employer) on laptops.
    - amatecha 2y ago
      Yeah, that's pretty shitty behaviour, invalidating all the good-faith feedback and going so far as to call it "trolling"?? Ridiculous. There's no excuse to be so hostile when handling bug reports.
    - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
      > The linked GitHub issue is one of the most aggravating exchanges Hyperbolic much? Because if you actually read the whole issue, here we have one maintainer acting out of line of refusing to process the issue until another one (Yu Watanabe) interjects, says there is an issue and actually commit a patchset adding the option asked for.
      - strken 2y ago
        I cannot think of any exchange I've read that aggravated me more than this one. I'm hedging my bets with "one of" because there might be something I've forgotten, but that specific series of events is like reading a transcript of The Trial if it happened in real life. It is seriously extremely annoying to me and I'm both intrigued and concerned that it doesn't even rank in your list.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- shakna 2y ago
  The cgroups changes [0] made my life more difficult for a while. "all the low level bits will go away without replacement". [0] https://lwn.net/Articles/555922/ https://lwn.net/Articles/555922/
lambda 2y ago
The thing is, the good things are the things you don't notice; the things that just work. They didn't used to "just work" like that before systemd. System boot is faster. I can have fewer things started up in the background, and instead have them start up when needed. Restarting services works consistently. Every application doesn't have its own bespoke and half baked management scripts which don't work half the time. They don't all have to invent their own daemonization support and logging; you just log to the journal. And that's just core systemd. Things like systemd-resolved give me proper support for split-DNS when using VPNs. systemd-networkd gives me consistent, powerful configurable networking setup that works across distros. Is it perfect? No, I do still have some complaints with it. But it's a hell of a lot better than what it's replacing. I wouldn't ever go back to sysvinit or upstart, and many other parts of systemd are compelling alternatives to the things they replace, like systemd-networkd over ifupdown.
- fsckboy 2y ago
  >the good things are the things you don't notice; the things that just work sorry, no, at least in any meaningful sense, because init already just worked for me. and when something didn't, I could find how to fix it in a way that was transparent and I understood and could even modify or make better, without being connected to the internet looking for cargo cult incantations on stack overflow init was a tool; systemd is an adversary
  - fiddlerwoaroof 2y ago
    Yeah, the two systemd components GP mentioned have given me no end of trouble.
  - cedilla 2y ago
    Okay, I'll bite. What kind of problems do you have with the part of systemd that replicates sysvinit /every other day/?
    - richardfey 2y ago
      My most common issues with systemd are related to those long timeouts when something at boot/shutdown is not working as intended, and unexplained/unexplainable changes to the order of boot of some components. For the former I have given up playing whackamole with all the timeouts you need to reconfigure, for the latter I didn't even try because I know that there's something peculiar about my setup that will never work nicely with systemd, there's simply not enough systems configured like that for upstream to care. I have accepted this new reality, but I know that before systemd I was able to fix any highly customised setup of mine, now I have to avoid that and minimise tinkering/hacking.

viraptor 2y ago

Can you link some upstream issues you raised about the big annoyances?

exe34 2y ago
not many people enjoy bikeshedding.
rjzzleep 2y ago
Random example. They randomly broke suspect-then-hibernate then the community manager gaslit people into trying to make them believe they don’t actually need the feature in the way it’s used and then silently acknowledged that their fix is broken after all. This is a common pattern by the way. But easily the most irritating thing for me is the simple issue that you used to be able to just go to /var/log/lastlog to see what failed during the last boot and that just the other day I had to spend hours figuring what broke in the system that made journalctl not log properly. In the end I had to reinstall all currently installed packages. https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/zczdnq/systemctl_suspendthenhibernate_not_working_anymore/?rdt=49489 https://www.reddit.com/r/archlinux/comments/zczdnq/systemctl...
- viraptor 2y ago
  So there was a bug and bad interaction and everyone on non-rolling system didn't even notice, because it's been fixed in 2 months? (Nov to Jan) It sucks, but it's been fixed for almost 2 years at this point. For the last boot you can use "journalctl -b -1" as long as you enabled persistent logs. If you ended up reinstalling everything, I don't think we can say whether that was a systemd related issue or not. I was curious what the current daily issues are.
- strken 2y ago
  The linked GitHub issue is one of the most aggravating exchanges I've ever read: https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/25269 https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/25269. I don't understand how you can read someone telling you that they want to suspend and then hibernate after a set duration, but A) not understand why this would be desirable, B) not understand that this is compatible with also hibernating at low battery, and C) not understand your own lack of comprehension.
  - wongogue 2y ago
    What the issue author is asking for is also the default behavior of Windows (which is developed by his employer) on laptops.
  - amatecha 2y ago
    Yeah, that's pretty shitty behaviour, invalidating all the good-faith feedback and going so far as to call it "trolling"?? Ridiculous. There's no excuse to be so hostile when handling bug reports.
  - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
    > The linked GitHub issue is one of the most aggravating exchanges Hyperbolic much? Because if you actually read the whole issue, here we have one maintainer acting out of line of refusing to process the issue until another one (Yu Watanabe) interjects, says there is an issue and actually commit a patchset adding the option asked for.
    - strken 2y ago
      I cannot think of any exchange I've read that aggravated me more than this one. I'm hedging my bets with "one of" because there might be something I've forgotten, but that specific series of events is like reading a transcript of The Trial if it happened in real life. It is seriously extremely annoying to me and I'm both intrigued and concerned that it doesn't even rank in your list.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
shakna 2y ago
The cgroups changes [0] made my life more difficult for a while. "all the low level bits will go away without replacement". [0] https://lwn.net/Articles/555922/ https://lwn.net/Articles/555922/

lambda 2y ago

The thing is, the good things are the things you don't notice; the things that just work. They didn't used to "just work" like that before systemd. System boot is faster. I can have fewer things started up in the background, and instead have them start up when needed. Restarting services works consistently. Every application doesn't have its own bespoke and half baked management scripts which don't work half the time. They don't all have to invent their own daemonization support and logging; you just log to the journal. And that's just core systemd. Things like systemd-resolved give me proper support for split-DNS when using VPNs. systemd-networkd gives me consistent, powerful configurable networking setup that works across distros. Is it perfect? No, I do still have some complaints with it. But it's a hell of a lot better than what it's replacing. I wouldn't ever go back to sysvinit or upstart, and many other parts of systemd are compelling alternatives to the things they replace, like systemd-networkd over ifupdown.

fsckboy 2y ago
>the good things are the things you don't notice; the things that just work sorry, no, at least in any meaningful sense, because init already just worked for me. and when something didn't, I could find how to fix it in a way that was transparent and I understood and could even modify or make better, without being connected to the internet looking for cargo cult incantations on stack overflow init was a tool; systemd is an adversary
- fiddlerwoaroof 2y ago
  Yeah, the two systemd components GP mentioned have given me no end of trouble.
- cedilla 2y ago
  Okay, I'll bite. What kind of problems do you have with the part of systemd that replicates sysvinit /every other day/?
  - richardfey 2y ago
    My most common issues with systemd are related to those long timeouts when something at boot/shutdown is not working as intended, and unexplained/unexplainable changes to the order of boot of some components. For the former I have given up playing whackamole with all the timeouts you need to reconfigure, for the latter I didn't even try because I know that there's something peculiar about my setup that will never work nicely with systemd, there's simply not enough systems configured like that for upstream to care. I have accepted this new reality, but I know that before systemd I was able to fix any highly customised setup of mine, now I have to avoid that and minimise tinkering/hacking.