5 ms·

US Government memo shows Ethel Rosenberg was not a spy but executed her anyway

33 points by ck2 2y ago

h2odragon 2y ago
Intercepted Russian communications, however, suggest otherwise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project
- Joker_vD 2y ago
  Well, better safe than sorry.
- sehugg 2y ago
  TFA mentions the Venona files and the cable that was the basis for this memo.
- no_exit 2y ago
  You obviously didn't read the article, since the FOIA memo referenced was from that.
  - adrian_b 2y ago
    The memo says: "she knew of her husbands work, but that due to ill health she did not engage in the work herself." As an accomplice, she might have deserved a lesser punishment, but she was not innocent. Moreover, supposing that what the memo says was correct, she was willing to contribute actively, but her health had prevented that.
magwa101 2y ago
[dead]
smm11 2y ago
Who is around now who actually did worse? I can't think of the name.
- PittleyDunkin 2y ago
  AIPAC? EDIT: Aside from the obvious pernicious foreign interference in our elections which is absolutely staggering, not many people remember this scandal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Franklin_espionage_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Franklin_espionage_sc... Or their role in our invasion of Iraq: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2007/10/aipac-and-iraq/46561/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2007/10/aipac-a...
  - Juden1488 2y ago
    [dead]
- georgeburdell 2y ago
  Maybe this guy, but he died last year https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen
- churchill 2y ago
  Jonathan Pollard stole an eyewatering amount of secrets for Israel, including the most-critical US nuclear blueprints and designs. The intelligence community wanted him to die in jail, but the Israeli Lobby, 70 Knesset members, President Shimon Peres, countless Jewish groups and figures kept applying pressure until he was paroled after 30 years served. Was such a storm in the intelligence community (because of the sensitivity of stuff stolen) that CIA chief tenet threatened to resign if he was pardoned.
gotoeleven 2y ago
If you know your spouse is committing treason and you continue going about being their spouse, is that a crime?
- nashashmi 2y ago
  Can spouses testify against their spouse in court on a crime that is external?
- Joker_vD 2y ago
  Even the Soviet article 58-1c, which introduced criminal penalty specifically for the family members in case they did not report the treason to authorities, only applied a) if the traitor was in the military service; b) only in cases when the treason consisted of fleeing the country. Otherwise, 58-12 would apply which did not have the capital punishment as an option.
- terminalbraid 2y ago
  In the US this is known as "misprision of treason" which is a crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misprision_of_treason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misprision_of_treason
  - M95D 2y ago
    From wikipedia: > "It is punishable by a fine and up to seven years in federal prison." Not death.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
A_D_E_P_T 2y ago
What's interesting is that she was damned, at least in large part, by testimony from her own brother, who claimed that she typed up memos on nuclear weapons for the Soviets. But then, in a plot twist, he recanted in 2001, saying: > “I don’t remember that at all,” Mr. Greenglass said. “I frankly think my wife did the typing, but I don’t remember.” > “My wife is more important to me than my sister. Or my mother or my father, O.K.? And she was the mother of my children.” Such honor, such integrity. See: https://archive.ph/yIrwV https://archive.ph/yIrwV
soared 2y ago
This seems like pretty weak evidence compared to what’s shown in other sources like Venona. Regardless - if someone does not do the spy work themselves, but is aware of, married to, and likely supports in some way a spy.. have they committed any crimes?
CSMastermind 2y ago
A more accurate headline would be "Sons of convicted spy find a sentence in a document they interpret as saying she's innocent if you ignore all the other evidence."
- asveikau 2y ago
  It's important to note this document was not disclosed to her defense. Law enforcement suppressing evidence that might exonerate, even in part or lead to a lesser charge, is a well worn trope, and should outrage us all. Not to mention the objections many of us have about capital punishment, which is a topic for another day.
- jasonm23 2y ago
  Yes, this is far more accurate. She was clearly aware and complicit. I don't blame them for wanting this to be vindicating... it's just not though.
FrankWilhoit 2y ago
Pour encourager les autres. That is all that criminal punishment has ever been.
threemux 2y ago
That memo shows no such thing. The persistence of this story is crazy. The article even links to the ample evidence of her participation. Just because she was physically unable to meet assets or whatever "work" means, doesn't mean she isn't guilty of espionage. Now, maybe you can argue the chair wasn't an appropriate punishment for her, but she is definitely guilty of conspiracy at a minimum. This is the sad story of children unable to come to terms with the fact that their parents were Soviet spies.
- gotoeleven 2y ago
  A tale as old as time...
OrvalWintermute 2y ago
She was actively recruiting other sources to obtain access to nuclear design materials. She lied about her involvement and her husband’s spying. She perjured herself in court with full knowledge of their complicity The assistance the Rosenbergs “provided very significant help in accelerating the production of [the Soviet Union’s] atomic bomb” (Khrushchev) One memo doesn’t disprove the orgy of evidence in her treachery
octopoc 2y ago
How many times was the atomic bomb developed? I think it might have been only once. Oppenheimer invented it, the Rosenburgs leaked it to the USSR, and if I understand correctly the communists leaked it to other communist countries. There were a few bad choices that led to MAD and I really regret that as a society we made those choices.
- aguaviva 2y ago
  The Rosenburgs leaked it to the USSR, The Soviets developed their first nuclear devices largely on their own; though findings from espionage certainly accelerated the effort, it wasn't like the entire conceptual design was simply "leaked" to them. As to the Rosenbergs - the article you just read makes it clear that while she apparently knew of her husband's doing, “she did not engage in the work herself” (per the leaked memo). But of course she had to be sent to the chair anyway. And whatever help Julius did provide was apparently of minimal value: The notes allegedly typed by Ethel apparently contained little that was directly used in the Soviet atomic bomb project.[63] According to Julius's contact Feklisov, the Rosenbergs did not provide the Soviet Union with any useful material about the atomic bomb: "He [Julius] didn't understand anything about the atomic bomb and he couldn't help us." General Leslie Groves, who developed the American nuclear program as part of the Manhattan Project, said during a United States Atomic Energy Commission hearing on Robert Oppenheimer that he thought that "the data that went out in the case of the Rosenbergs was of minor value" and that he "always felt the effects were greatly exaggerated, that the Russians did not get too much information out of it". Groves requested that this "should be kept very quiet" as he still believed the Rosenbergs deserved to die. This part of his testimony was redacted from the publicly released 1954 transcript of the Commission's hearing on Oppenheimer and remained classified until 2014. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg
- amenhotep 2y ago
  You know the USA aren't the only non-communist country to develop nuclear weapons?
- M95D 2y ago
  The possibility of constructing a bomb was known probably since the '20s. The USSR most certainly could have done it themselves, alone. What the leak most probably did was reduce the number of nuclear tests done by the USSR and probably nuclear accidents too (USSR were really prone to accidents). Which is good for the entire planet.
bellorap 2y ago
“Well she was still guilty of something” “Well she would have spied if she could” Feeling relieved HN comments sections aren’t responsible for handling death row appeals
pixxel 2y ago
Berg.
- Juden1488 2y ago
  [flagged]

33 points by ck2 2y ago

Intercepted Russian communications, however, suggest otherwise. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venona_project

Joker_vD 2y ago
Well, better safe than sorry.
sehugg 2y ago
TFA mentions the Venona files and the cable that was the basis for this memo.
no_exit 2y ago
You obviously didn't read the article, since the FOIA memo referenced was from that.
- adrian_b 2y ago
  The memo says: "she knew of her husbands work, but that due to ill health she did not engage in the work herself." As an accomplice, she might have deserved a lesser punishment, but she was not innocent. Moreover, supposing that what the memo says was correct, she was willing to contribute actively, but her health had prevented that.

magwa101 2y ago

[dead]

smm11 2y ago

Who is around now who actually did worse? I can't think of the name.

PittleyDunkin 2y ago
AIPAC? EDIT: Aside from the obvious pernicious foreign interference in our elections which is absolutely staggering, not many people remember this scandal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Franklin_espionage_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Franklin_espionage_sc... Or their role in our invasion of Iraq: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2007/10/aipac-and-iraq/46561/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2007/10/aipac-a...
- Juden1488 2y ago
  [dead]
georgeburdell 2y ago
Maybe this guy, but he died last year https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Hanssen
churchill 2y ago
Jonathan Pollard stole an eyewatering amount of secrets for Israel, including the most-critical US nuclear blueprints and designs. The intelligence community wanted him to die in jail, but the Israeli Lobby, 70 Knesset members, President Shimon Peres, countless Jewish groups and figures kept applying pressure until he was paroled after 30 years served. Was such a storm in the intelligence community (because of the sensitivity of stuff stolen) that CIA chief tenet threatened to resign if he was pardoned.

gotoeleven 2y ago

If you know your spouse is committing treason and you continue going about being their spouse, is that a crime?

nashashmi 2y ago
Can spouses testify against their spouse in court on a crime that is external?
Joker_vD 2y ago
Even the Soviet article 58-1c, which introduced criminal penalty specifically for the family members in case they did not report the treason to authorities, only applied a) if the traitor was in the military service; b) only in cases when the treason consisted of fleeing the country. Otherwise, 58-12 would apply which did not have the capital punishment as an option.
terminalbraid 2y ago
In the US this is known as "misprision of treason" which is a crime. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misprision_of_treason https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misprision_of_treason
- M95D 2y ago
  From wikipedia: > "It is punishable by a fine and up to seven years in federal prison." Not death.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

A_D_E_P_T 2y ago

What's interesting is that she was damned, at least in large part, by testimony from her own brother, who claimed that she typed up memos on nuclear weapons for the Soviets. But then, in a plot twist, he recanted in 2001, saying: > “I don’t remember that at all,” Mr. Greenglass said. “I frankly think my wife did the typing, but I don’t remember.” > “My wife is more important to me than my sister. Or my mother or my father, O.K.? And she was the mother of my children.” Such honor, such integrity. See: https://archive.ph/yIrwV https://archive.ph/yIrwV

soared 2y ago

This seems like pretty weak evidence compared to what’s shown in other sources like Venona. Regardless - if someone does not do the spy work themselves, but is aware of, married to, and likely supports in some way a spy.. have they committed any crimes?

CSMastermind 2y ago

A more accurate headline would be "Sons of convicted spy find a sentence in a document they interpret as saying she's innocent if you ignore all the other evidence."

asveikau 2y ago
It's important to note this document was not disclosed to her defense. Law enforcement suppressing evidence that might exonerate, even in part or lead to a lesser charge, is a well worn trope, and should outrage us all. Not to mention the objections many of us have about capital punishment, which is a topic for another day.
jasonm23 2y ago
Yes, this is far more accurate. She was clearly aware and complicit. I don't blame them for wanting this to be vindicating... it's just not though.

FrankWilhoit 2y ago

Pour encourager les autres. That is all that criminal punishment has ever been.

threemux 2y ago

That memo shows no such thing. The persistence of this story is crazy. The article even links to the ample evidence of her participation. Just because she was physically unable to meet assets or whatever "work" means, doesn't mean she isn't guilty of espionage. Now, maybe you can argue the chair wasn't an appropriate punishment for her, but she is definitely guilty of conspiracy at a minimum. This is the sad story of children unable to come to terms with the fact that their parents were Soviet spies.

gotoeleven 2y ago
A tale as old as time...

OrvalWintermute 2y ago

She was actively recruiting other sources to obtain access to nuclear design materials. She lied about her involvement and her husband’s spying. She perjured herself in court with full knowledge of their complicity The assistance the Rosenbergs “provided very significant help in accelerating the production of [the Soviet Union’s] atomic bomb” (Khrushchev) One memo doesn’t disprove the orgy of evidence in her treachery

octopoc 2y ago

How many times was the atomic bomb developed? I think it might have been only once. Oppenheimer invented it, the Rosenburgs leaked it to the USSR, and if I understand correctly the communists leaked it to other communist countries. There were a few bad choices that led to MAD and I really regret that as a society we made those choices.

aguaviva 2y ago
The Rosenburgs leaked it to the USSR, The Soviets developed their first nuclear devices largely on their own; though findings from espionage certainly accelerated the effort, it wasn't like the entire conceptual design was simply "leaked" to them. As to the Rosenbergs - the article you just read makes it clear that while she apparently knew of her husband's doing, “she did not engage in the work herself” (per the leaked memo). But of course she had to be sent to the chair anyway. And whatever help Julius did provide was apparently of minimal value: The notes allegedly typed by Ethel apparently contained little that was directly used in the Soviet atomic bomb project.[63] According to Julius's contact Feklisov, the Rosenbergs did not provide the Soviet Union with any useful material about the atomic bomb: "He [Julius] didn't understand anything about the atomic bomb and he couldn't help us." General Leslie Groves, who developed the American nuclear program as part of the Manhattan Project, said during a United States Atomic Energy Commission hearing on Robert Oppenheimer that he thought that "the data that went out in the case of the Rosenbergs was of minor value" and that he "always felt the effects were greatly exaggerated, that the Russians did not get too much information out of it". Groves requested that this "should be kept very quiet" as he still believed the Rosenbergs deserved to die. This part of his testimony was redacted from the publicly released 1954 transcript of the Commission's hearing on Oppenheimer and remained classified until 2014. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg
amenhotep 2y ago
You know the USA aren't the only non-communist country to develop nuclear weapons?
M95D 2y ago
The possibility of constructing a bomb was known probably since the '20s. The USSR most certainly could have done it themselves, alone. What the leak most probably did was reduce the number of nuclear tests done by the USSR and probably nuclear accidents too (USSR were really prone to accidents). Which is good for the entire planet.

bellorap 2y ago

“Well she was still guilty of something” “Well she would have spied if she could” Feeling relieved HN comments sections aren’t responsible for handling death row appeals

pixxel 2y ago

Berg.

Juden1488 2y ago
[flagged]