5 ms·

Post: "If you’re comfortable, I’d like us to try and be 10% more vulnerable" This comment: "I'd rather not have my manager forcing me to do group therapy." Ho

by wkjagt 2y ago

Post: "If you’re comfortable, I’d like us to try and be 10% more vulnerable" This comment: "I'd rather not have my manager forcing me to do group therapy." How did "if you’re comfortable" become "forcing me", and "try and be 10% more vulnerable" become "group therapy"?

hosteur 2y ago
Probably because of the power asymmetry.
- molochai 2y ago
  Power asymmetry and also group pressure. There is still plenty of tacit pressure to share despite the "optional" caveat. Someone who says directly "I don't like this, no thank you" even in very deferential words will garner some degree of negativity, either from the manager or the group. Same for someone who shares too much and winds up sobbing, or someone who shares a vulnerability inconsequential in comparison to what others share.
  - twelve40 2y ago
    I don't even know how I would react if i was caught off-guard with a stupid question like that out of the blue with everyone watching. On a good day, I would probably laugh it off and say something obviously idiotic like "my vulnerability is that i work too hard" to indicate that I don't find this amusing. On a bad day, caught off-guard, I might actually take the bait, "become vulnerable" and blurt out something far more stupid in front of everybody.
kroolik 2y ago
Its not difficult to imagine a person saying 'i have nothing i want to share here' be stigmatised in future. As a person who doesnt want to work together and be part of the company culture.
- dzikimarian 2y ago
  Or just share regular story you would normally share, when introducing yourself in work setting? I'm 100% sure nobody would care.
  - XorNot 2y ago
    I'm not sure anyone wants to share the work-safe marginally funny story they use around new people as the chaser to someone discussing how they got clean off drugs or recently dealt with a miscarriage or something. Like will anyone care? Probably not but it's an incredibly awkward situation to toss people into when they're at work.
    - Tainnor 2y ago
      > how they got clean off drugs which would probably even work okay because everyone loves and applauds a success story or something that isn't your fault, but imagine someone sharing their ongoing drug addiction. People who think that workplaces are "safe" spaces for personal issues should try envisioning what the reaction to that would be.
      - dzikimarian 2y ago
        Now let's switch to close family setting. It would be OK to discuss drug addiction with your parents. It would not be OK to discuss steamy night with your wife with them. It's almost like adult people can understand environment and make conscious decisions what is acceptable and what is 10% they can bend the rules if they want to switch the mood a little. Honestly it's hilarious how supposedly emotionally mature people panic and over-analyse in this thread.
        Tainnor 2y ago
        > Almost like adult people can understand environment and make conscious decisions what is acceptable [...] Apparently not because in TFA, the author shared personal facts about their divorce and other people shared even "deeper" things they'd "never heard in a work setting". Quote: "it was awkward". These aren't things that belong in a workplace context (sure, if you're going out for drinks after work maybe you can volunteer such things - but not during a workplace meeting!).
baxtr 2y ago
The thing is - and the post actually showcases this - that "10% more vulnerable" is super abstract. What does that even mean? Seems like it triggers people to share very deep stuff.
- HPsquared 2y ago
  The difference between "0-10%" and "10-11%"
- kyleee 2y ago
  People are very weird. 10% more vulnerable to me would be a story about “I’m not very good at painting but I like it” or “I have 6 toes on my left foot”. As opposed to divorce, bipolar, etc.
  - cutemonster 2y ago
    It means that everyone shares 10% of their mental illnesses
dymk 2y ago
A manager asking a teammate to do something in front of a bunch of other people - even "only if you're comfortable" - always puts them in a position where they feel they have to do the thing. Come on, this is basic social behavior.
stego-tech 2y ago
Because bosses exist on a scale. For the sake of the argument, let’s use American letter grades. The boss mentioned above would be a “B” boss - good intentions, but a forced execution that shifts more of the burden to employees. I don’t necessarily mind these types, but it can be incredibly off-putting for those of us who work to live, rather than live to work. Above that you have the “A” bosses, who invite that level of vulnerability by repeatedly displaying their trustworthiness to you and the team. I’ve had a few of these bosses before, and they’re amazing; sadly, they rarely last long in the face of “maximum profit” corporate cultures that demand everyone be a replaceable cog in a machine. Okay, so at what point does that become “forced group therapy?” The C-D-F bosses. C-rank bosses will demand vulnerability because they mistake it for honesty or loyalty. Good employees pick up on this and will placate them with some useless trivia nugget but otherwise have mediocre to bad rapport with said boss. D-grade bosses are even worse. They’ll push and pull and drag and yank something suitably vulnerable from everyone, and even try to solutionize whatever was shared with the team. This is (in my subjective experience) the most common form of boss, born of MBA coursework and saddled with buzzword-laden articles of “how to be a better leader” from magazines no C-Suite would be caught dead reading. Finally is the F-grade boss, who literally just wants to know who is going to need replacing imminently. Don’t get me wrong, this is something every other grade is silently doing as well (hence the “forced group therapy” metaphor), but F-grade bosses are bad enough to be overt about it. Got a coworker who mentions they’re trying to have a baby? They’ll make sure said coworker never has a positive review again, so it’s easier to replace them once they’re pregnant. All of this is to say that if YOU are a boss, and an employee is being vulnerable with you in an unprompted or non-coerced manner, you have won their trust and you better respect that. But if you’re forcing them to be vulnerable somehow, you’re actually harming the trust relationship in the long run and will make your staff wary of your motives. Prove they can trust you, and they’ll open up on their own.
- jondlm 2y ago
  This is great. I absolutely agree that the best leaders gently invite and lead with appropriate vulnerability. They also don't mind if people say "no" either with words or body language.
bell-cot 2y ago
Read his description a couple more times, while pretending that you're a therapist. The "wait, what the ?" stuff can give you a better sense of his emotions and mental state, if you don't balk at the objective counterfactuals.
insane_dreamer 2y ago
A suggestion like that can some across as not optional. See the famous “wear bling” scene in Office Space.
- seanhandley 2y ago
  “Pieces of flair”
jondlm 2y ago
I know I won't be able to convince everyone here, but I didn't feel pressured to share anything deeply personal. Some people on the team didn't. They weren't punished or looked down on. We were a tight-knit team before and after that event.
- cutemonster 2y ago
  > We were a tight-knit team before Interesting to know. Seems people who reply here, a bit assume it's a group of competitive coworkers who mostly don't know each other, in a big cut-throat corp? I'd been ok with that meeting at my first job (together with my closest coworkers only). It'd been weird at my 2nd job though. I guess it depends :-)
  - cutemonster 2y ago
    > I'd been ok with (But it wouldn't have been needed at all, there. I guess that's related to why it would have been ok.)
BehindBlueEyes 2y ago
I get an optional ask from a manager is still an ask, but i agree 10% more vulnerable means it's ok to show some weakness like disliking public speaking or imposter symdrome, maybe past/resolved trauma. Strong opposing views seem to focus on sharing big things like a recent miscarriage or drug abuse or depression... That feels inappropriate as way over 10% and indeed should be directed to therapy not a work meeting. also it makes a difference if there are actual mental health benefits associated and manager training to handle things properly (including confidentially) or if it is one "rogue" well meaning manager initiative in a culture where it doesn't fit. Sharing may help or backfire case by case even if the culture is open and supportive. I've seen enough FTEs get more benefits but contractors/contingency staff being let go after coming out with similar mental health issues...
consteval 2y ago
Your manager asking you something is never a request. How you "choose" to answer directly affects how they will perceive you, and there is an implication.

by wkjagt 2y ago

hosteur 2y ago

Probably because of the power asymmetry.

molochai 2y ago
Power asymmetry and also group pressure. There is still plenty of tacit pressure to share despite the "optional" caveat. Someone who says directly "I don't like this, no thank you" even in very deferential words will garner some degree of negativity, either from the manager or the group. Same for someone who shares too much and winds up sobbing, or someone who shares a vulnerability inconsequential in comparison to what others share.
- twelve40 2y ago
  I don't even know how I would react if i was caught off-guard with a stupid question like that out of the blue with everyone watching. On a good day, I would probably laugh it off and say something obviously idiotic like "my vulnerability is that i work too hard" to indicate that I don't find this amusing. On a bad day, caught off-guard, I might actually take the bait, "become vulnerable" and blurt out something far more stupid in front of everybody.

kroolik 2y ago

Its not difficult to imagine a person saying 'i have nothing i want to share here' be stigmatised in future. As a person who doesnt want to work together and be part of the company culture.

dzikimarian 2y ago
Or just share regular story you would normally share, when introducing yourself in work setting? I'm 100% sure nobody would care.
- XorNot 2y ago
  I'm not sure anyone wants to share the work-safe marginally funny story they use around new people as the chaser to someone discussing how they got clean off drugs or recently dealt with a miscarriage or something. Like will anyone care? Probably not but it's an incredibly awkward situation to toss people into when they're at work.
  - Tainnor 2y ago
    > how they got clean off drugs which would probably even work okay because everyone loves and applauds a success story or something that isn't your fault, but imagine someone sharing their ongoing drug addiction. People who think that workplaces are "safe" spaces for personal issues should try envisioning what the reaction to that would be.
    - dzikimarian 2y ago
      Now let's switch to close family setting. It would be OK to discuss drug addiction with your parents. It would not be OK to discuss steamy night with your wife with them. It's almost like adult people can understand environment and make conscious decisions what is acceptable and what is 10% they can bend the rules if they want to switch the mood a little. Honestly it's hilarious how supposedly emotionally mature people panic and over-analyse in this thread.
      - Tainnor 2y ago
        > Almost like adult people can understand environment and make conscious decisions what is acceptable [...] Apparently not because in TFA, the author shared personal facts about their divorce and other people shared even "deeper" things they'd "never heard in a work setting". Quote: "it was awkward". These aren't things that belong in a workplace context (sure, if you're going out for drinks after work maybe you can volunteer such things - but not during a workplace meeting!).

baxtr 2y ago

The thing is - and the post actually showcases this - that "10% more vulnerable" is super abstract. What does that even mean? Seems like it triggers people to share very deep stuff.

HPsquared 2y ago
The difference between "0-10%" and "10-11%"
kyleee 2y ago
People are very weird. 10% more vulnerable to me would be a story about “I’m not very good at painting but I like it” or “I have 6 toes on my left foot”. As opposed to divorce, bipolar, etc.
- cutemonster 2y ago
  It means that everyone shares 10% of their mental illnesses

dymk 2y ago

A manager asking a teammate to do something in front of a bunch of other people - even "only if you're comfortable" - always puts them in a position where they feel they have to do the thing. Come on, this is basic social behavior.

stego-tech 2y ago

Because bosses exist on a scale. For the sake of the argument, let’s use American letter grades. The boss mentioned above would be a “B” boss - good intentions, but a forced execution that shifts more of the burden to employees. I don’t necessarily mind these types, but it can be incredibly off-putting for those of us who work to live, rather than live to work. Above that you have the “A” bosses, who invite that level of vulnerability by repeatedly displaying their trustworthiness to you and the team. I’ve had a few of these bosses before, and they’re amazing; sadly, they rarely last long in the face of “maximum profit” corporate cultures that demand everyone be a replaceable cog in a machine. Okay, so at what point does that become “forced group therapy?” The C-D-F bosses. C-rank bosses will demand vulnerability because they mistake it for honesty or loyalty. Good employees pick up on this and will placate them with some useless trivia nugget but otherwise have mediocre to bad rapport with said boss. D-grade bosses are even worse. They’ll push and pull and drag and yank something suitably vulnerable from everyone, and even try to solutionize whatever was shared with the team. This is (in my subjective experience) the most common form of boss, born of MBA coursework and saddled with buzzword-laden articles of “how to be a better leader” from magazines no C-Suite would be caught dead reading. Finally is the F-grade boss, who literally just wants to know who is going to need replacing imminently. Don’t get me wrong, this is something every other grade is silently doing as well (hence the “forced group therapy” metaphor), but F-grade bosses are bad enough to be overt about it. Got a coworker who mentions they’re trying to have a baby? They’ll make sure said coworker never has a positive review again, so it’s easier to replace them once they’re pregnant. All of this is to say that if YOU are a boss, and an employee is being vulnerable with you in an unprompted or non-coerced manner, you have won their trust and you better respect that. But if you’re forcing them to be vulnerable somehow, you’re actually harming the trust relationship in the long run and will make your staff wary of your motives. Prove they can trust you, and they’ll open up on their own.

jondlm 2y ago
This is great. I absolutely agree that the best leaders gently invite and lead with appropriate vulnerability. They also don't mind if people say "no" either with words or body language.

bell-cot 2y ago

Read his description a couple more times, while pretending that you're a therapist. The "wait, what the ?" stuff can give you a better sense of his emotions and mental state, if you don't balk at the objective counterfactuals.

insane_dreamer 2y ago

A suggestion like that can some across as not optional. See the famous “wear bling” scene in Office Space.

seanhandley 2y ago
“Pieces of flair”

jondlm 2y ago

I know I won't be able to convince everyone here, but I didn't feel pressured to share anything deeply personal. Some people on the team didn't. They weren't punished or looked down on. We were a tight-knit team before and after that event.

cutemonster 2y ago
> We were a tight-knit team before Interesting to know. Seems people who reply here, a bit assume it's a group of competitive coworkers who mostly don't know each other, in a big cut-throat corp? I'd been ok with that meeting at my first job (together with my closest coworkers only). It'd been weird at my 2nd job though. I guess it depends :-)
- cutemonster 2y ago
  > I'd been ok with (But it wouldn't have been needed at all, there. I guess that's related to why it would have been ok.)

BehindBlueEyes 2y ago

I get an optional ask from a manager is still an ask, but i agree 10% more vulnerable means it's ok to show some weakness like disliking public speaking or imposter symdrome, maybe past/resolved trauma. Strong opposing views seem to focus on sharing big things like a recent miscarriage or drug abuse or depression... That feels inappropriate as way over 10% and indeed should be directed to therapy not a work meeting. also it makes a difference if there are actual mental health benefits associated and manager training to handle things properly (including confidentially) or if it is one "rogue" well meaning manager initiative in a culture where it doesn't fit. Sharing may help or backfire case by case even if the culture is open and supportive. I've seen enough FTEs get more benefits but contractors/contingency staff being let go after coming out with similar mental health issues...

consteval 2y ago

Your manager asking you something is never a request. How you "choose" to answer directly affects how they will perceive you, and there is an implication.