5 ms·

As someone whose natural sleep cycle seems to be closer to 26-28 hours, and whose preferred sleeping hours in a 24-hour cycle are 6am to 2-3pm... I commend you.

As someone whose natural sleep cycle seems to be closer to 26-28 hours, and whose preferred sleeping hours in a 24-hour cycle are 6am to 2-3pm... I commend you. Sincerely, someone forced into a "normal" schedule by kids school start times and, well, everything else too, I suppose.

noduerme 2y ago
Hah. I've often thought that my actual rhythm is for a 25-26 hour day. I was going to write that but it seemed like too much to explain. As I go to bed later and later, eventually I find myself awake past sunrise, which is usually the day when I'll intentionally have a short sleep and snap back to an early bedtime that night. Kids would definitely screw up this aspect of my lifestyle lol. But kids give you immortality, and here I am just wondering if I'm gaining or losing a couple years.
- deprecative 2y ago
  Just as a secondary data point. Without medication I have about a 32:12 hour cycle. Up for at least 30 hours and sleeping for about 12. I can function on 5 but I'm grumpy about it for a while. Always been that way. Completely inverted as well. Up all night and my body tries to convince me to sleep during the day but I'm just not able to for another twelve hours. I got fired from several jobs because of it. My folks weren't understanding so I genuinely believed that I was willingly staying up and well... Needless to say I have no professional network and most of my friends thought I was a massive flake and those connections fell apart, too. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. Even diagnosed with insomnia I still feel massive guilt about not being able to sleep like a normal person. I just ruin everyone's plans around me. If I need to be up I have to hope my medication works (when employed) and if it does I need an hour to wake up enough to feel safe doing anything major like cooking or driving. Sorry for the ramble. Appropriately I've been up for like 34 hours and am hoping these OTC meds kick in. Hope y'all have a great weekend.
  - mrandish 2y ago
    Just curious what meds you take for this.
    - deprecative 2y ago
      Prescribed or OTC?
  - Clamchop 2y ago
    I relate so much. I'm on some heavy hitting medication to manage it which no doubt will have their own consequences for me. Feels like there's no winning.
    - metadat 2y ago
      Yes, what are the "heavy hitting meds" for sleep, please?
  - noduerme 2y ago
    Hey, I feel that. Lots of people think I'm a flake. And I use the word "inverted" frequently to describe my state to my friends/girlfriend/clients when it gets too far outside social norms ;) Just a piece of unsolicited advice: I learned to make a virtue out of it. I'm a solo software dev and I have to maintain big pieces of code that run 24/7. Well, my virtue is that I've been available 24/7 to my clients for the last 20 years. And one of the results of that has been that they've never abandoned me and gone to larger companies to deal with software issues. My own schedule is so variable, it doesn't really matter if I'm asleep or awake or what time zone they're in; if it's not urgent, it goes into my inbox, but if it's urgent, I usually answer the phone immediately. Part of this has been adding layers of support forms so I don't have to wake up to every phone call. But the people who have my cell number get through right away. The result of that is that I basically get paid $300 every time I have to wake up, which is soul-soothing enough to prevent me from being angry. And the rest of the time I can sleep whenever I feel like it. Being on a 32:12 hour cycle could have massive rewards. Clients are extremely appreciative, especially if you break your sleep for something important. Like, don't be afraid to tell your clients about your sleep cycle. Getting through admitting that was probably the biggest breakthrough of my career. My girlfriend loves that I'm still up working and make her breakfast at 4am when she's headed for work some days, or make her dinner when she comes home at night others. It's always a surprise, I tell her. You just have to find people who appreciate the energy you bring. Yes, the "straight world" of people with 9-5 jobs and kids absolutely abhors this lifestyle and thinks it's irresponsible and flakey. But then again, they don't get paid $300 for waking up in the middle of the day ;) My friends (and girlfriends) are lyft drivers, waiters, coders, night shift workers, and other people who spurn daylight society. We are legion.
- wrs 2y ago
  Many years ago, at college, I stayed in town for a summer rather than going back home or elsewhere. I had a coding job with no fixed hours (and working in a windowless basement), and no friends in town. So I tried the “sleep when I want” experiment. IIRC I settled into about a 26-hour cycle.
- dmurray 2y ago
  Experiments where people aren't told what time it is end up with them gravitating towards a 25-26 hour day. So you're totally normal. Wikipedia [0] criticises these experiments and says they didn't account for electric light, which apparently lengthens the cycle. So to rephrase, people with any access whatsoever to electric light favour a 25-26 hour day. You're still totally normal, but it explains you may have better outcomes with annoying interventions like "no artificial light in the last few hours of the evening". [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm
  - vundercind 2y ago
    I actually experimented with that. I allowed myself two candles, which I found was enough to read by and plenty for navigating my house. Soon, all night time electric lighting seemed batshit crazy. Dozens of times too bright. Of course we all can’t fucking sleep. It’s so wildly much brighter than necessary. I gave it up after a few weeks because it’s pretty much impossible to keep up if you’re ever around other people in the evening (and I have a family, so…) and they’re not entirely on-board, or just need to get stuff done at night because life is busy (again: I have a family) and everything about modern scheduling and activities assumes you can do things for hours after sun-down. But, the experience did convince me that 95% of “night owls” and serious trouble sleeping are just the obvious and natural consequence of crazy-bright nighttime lighting and hyper-stimulating electronic home entertainment (which all also emits light, so I was shunning that stuff after dark too during my experiment). We have a sleeplessness epidemic? Gee I wonder if it’s because we light up our houses like a carnival and then put a world’s fair x100 at our finger tips. Like, yes, of course it’s that. I’ve since discovered that low-dose weed gummies also get the job done with no side effects (aside from allowing me an hour or so of giggly TV watching right before bed, if I want it—oh no, what a tragedy), for me, and are far more compatible with modern life. Kinda lame to have to medicate my way out of the human body and mind of course not being able to cope with what we all do to them after dark, through. I’ve used the analogy on here before, but imagine some 18th century emperor or king complained to his physician that he’d been lighting up his palace and grounds every night as bright possible and hosting a weeks-long 24/7 festival featuring the world’s finest entertainers (including the rather lewd sorts), intellectuals, travelers and philosophers, jesters and players, and, well, for some reason he’s having trouble falling asleep at a decent hour. LOL fucking yeah, dude, no wonder. But we do that and then go “man I wonder if maybe I need a better pillow or to get more vitamin D” or whatever. Seriously?
- artdigital 2y ago
  > I've often thought that my actual rhythm is for a 25-26 hour day To be fair, we're all like this. The average length of Circadian Cycle is closer to 25h than 24h when isolated: https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/info/cycle_length.php https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/info/cycle_length.ph...
  - OJFord 2y ago
    I was all ready to agree because I always feel I want >24h, but that link is actually correcting earlier studies finding 25h to say no it is more like 24h on average (once isolated from screens)?
- left-struck 2y ago
  I used to do this as well sort of, my schedule would shift by a few hours every day. I found that it had a significant impact on my mental health when I was sleeping through the day though, and it made it difficult to participate in various aspects of society like work, education and in person social things. I was eventually able to “fix” it by taking melatonin as a supplement to fix a short term schedule and being super anal about not letting people pressure me into playing games late or staying out late. I basically reframed sleeping hygiene as a primary health concern and that worked for me. Anyway if your schedule doesn’t impact you in a negative way then go for it
deergomoo 2y ago
I really hoped I’d grow out of wanting to sleep ~3-11am but it’s just never happened. No matter how tired I am during the day, I get a second wind around 8pm and have to force myself to go to bed at a reasonable hour during the work week because I won’t get sleepy, even if I stay away from screens. Unfortunately I really enjoy night time, so I regularly completely fail at that task. I can’t remember the last time I woke up feeling rested, and yet here I am on Hacker News at 1:48am. At least I can sleep in tomorrow.
- MengerSponge 2y ago
  Do you drink any caffeine?
  - deergomoo 2y ago
    Usually just one cup of coffee on weekday mornings, but in general caffeine does not seem to perk me up, keep me awake, or have any noticeable effect besides jump starting my digestive system. I could (and have done, in the past) have a coffee at 2am and go to sleep around 3 no problem. In my adult life I have ranged between 5-6 cups a day when I used to go into the office and none at all during periods where I just fell out of the habit of making any.
    - noduerme 2y ago
      >> besides jump starting my digestive system lol. Same here. Keeping your digestive system on track with your sleep cycle deserves a whole separate discussion. For those of us who've discovered coffee and cigarettes, usually the sight of one or the other is enough to get ya goin'
      - deergomoo 2y ago
        My buddy refers to it as “the strike” heh. First coffee (or cigarette for him) of the day, you better be near a bathroom.
- lucb1e 2y ago
colechristensen 2y ago
I’ve been in this situation and the problem is basically that the various internal clocks aren’t getting good quality information to keep them in sync. Light, food, and exercise and the timing of them have a big impact.

noduerme 2y ago

Hah. I've often thought that my actual rhythm is for a 25-26 hour day. I was going to write that but it seemed like too much to explain. As I go to bed later and later, eventually I find myself awake past sunrise, which is usually the day when I'll intentionally have a short sleep and snap back to an early bedtime that night. Kids would definitely screw up this aspect of my lifestyle lol. But kids give you immortality, and here I am just wondering if I'm gaining or losing a couple years.

deprecative 2y ago
Just as a secondary data point. Without medication I have about a 32:12 hour cycle. Up for at least 30 hours and sleeping for about 12. I can function on 5 but I'm grumpy about it for a while. Always been that way. Completely inverted as well. Up all night and my body tries to convince me to sleep during the day but I'm just not able to for another twelve hours. I got fired from several jobs because of it. My folks weren't understanding so I genuinely believed that I was willingly staying up and well... Needless to say I have no professional network and most of my friends thought I was a massive flake and those connections fell apart, too. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. Even diagnosed with insomnia I still feel massive guilt about not being able to sleep like a normal person. I just ruin everyone's plans around me. If I need to be up I have to hope my medication works (when employed) and if it does I need an hour to wake up enough to feel safe doing anything major like cooking or driving. Sorry for the ramble. Appropriately I've been up for like 34 hours and am hoping these OTC meds kick in. Hope y'all have a great weekend.
- mrandish 2y ago
  Just curious what meds you take for this.
  - deprecative 2y ago
    Prescribed or OTC?
- Clamchop 2y ago
  I relate so much. I'm on some heavy hitting medication to manage it which no doubt will have their own consequences for me. Feels like there's no winning.
  - metadat 2y ago
    Yes, what are the "heavy hitting meds" for sleep, please?
- noduerme 2y ago
  Hey, I feel that. Lots of people think I'm a flake. And I use the word "inverted" frequently to describe my state to my friends/girlfriend/clients when it gets too far outside social norms ;) Just a piece of unsolicited advice: I learned to make a virtue out of it. I'm a solo software dev and I have to maintain big pieces of code that run 24/7. Well, my virtue is that I've been available 24/7 to my clients for the last 20 years. And one of the results of that has been that they've never abandoned me and gone to larger companies to deal with software issues. My own schedule is so variable, it doesn't really matter if I'm asleep or awake or what time zone they're in; if it's not urgent, it goes into my inbox, but if it's urgent, I usually answer the phone immediately. Part of this has been adding layers of support forms so I don't have to wake up to every phone call. But the people who have my cell number get through right away. The result of that is that I basically get paid $300 every time I have to wake up, which is soul-soothing enough to prevent me from being angry. And the rest of the time I can sleep whenever I feel like it. Being on a 32:12 hour cycle could have massive rewards. Clients are extremely appreciative, especially if you break your sleep for something important. Like, don't be afraid to tell your clients about your sleep cycle. Getting through admitting that was probably the biggest breakthrough of my career. My girlfriend loves that I'm still up working and make her breakfast at 4am when she's headed for work some days, or make her dinner when she comes home at night others. It's always a surprise, I tell her. You just have to find people who appreciate the energy you bring. Yes, the "straight world" of people with 9-5 jobs and kids absolutely abhors this lifestyle and thinks it's irresponsible and flakey. But then again, they don't get paid $300 for waking up in the middle of the day ;) My friends (and girlfriends) are lyft drivers, waiters, coders, night shift workers, and other people who spurn daylight society. We are legion.
wrs 2y ago
Many years ago, at college, I stayed in town for a summer rather than going back home or elsewhere. I had a coding job with no fixed hours (and working in a windowless basement), and no friends in town. So I tried the “sleep when I want” experiment. IIRC I settled into about a 26-hour cycle.
dmurray 2y ago
Experiments where people aren't told what time it is end up with them gravitating towards a 25-26 hour day. So you're totally normal. Wikipedia [0] criticises these experiments and says they didn't account for electric light, which apparently lengthens the cycle. So to rephrase, people with any access whatsoever to electric light favour a 25-26 hour day. You're still totally normal, but it explains you may have better outcomes with annoying interventions like "no artificial light in the last few hours of the evening". [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circadian_rhythm
- vundercind 2y ago
  I actually experimented with that. I allowed myself two candles, which I found was enough to read by and plenty for navigating my house. Soon, all night time electric lighting seemed batshit crazy. Dozens of times too bright. Of course we all can’t fucking sleep. It’s so wildly much brighter than necessary. I gave it up after a few weeks because it’s pretty much impossible to keep up if you’re ever around other people in the evening (and I have a family, so…) and they’re not entirely on-board, or just need to get stuff done at night because life is busy (again: I have a family) and everything about modern scheduling and activities assumes you can do things for hours after sun-down. But, the experience did convince me that 95% of “night owls” and serious trouble sleeping are just the obvious and natural consequence of crazy-bright nighttime lighting and hyper-stimulating electronic home entertainment (which all also emits light, so I was shunning that stuff after dark too during my experiment). We have a sleeplessness epidemic? Gee I wonder if it’s because we light up our houses like a carnival and then put a world’s fair x100 at our finger tips. Like, yes, of course it’s that. I’ve since discovered that low-dose weed gummies also get the job done with no side effects (aside from allowing me an hour or so of giggly TV watching right before bed, if I want it—oh no, what a tragedy), for me, and are far more compatible with modern life. Kinda lame to have to medicate my way out of the human body and mind of course not being able to cope with what we all do to them after dark, through. I’ve used the analogy on here before, but imagine some 18th century emperor or king complained to his physician that he’d been lighting up his palace and grounds every night as bright possible and hosting a weeks-long 24/7 festival featuring the world’s finest entertainers (including the rather lewd sorts), intellectuals, travelers and philosophers, jesters and players, and, well, for some reason he’s having trouble falling asleep at a decent hour. LOL fucking yeah, dude, no wonder. But we do that and then go “man I wonder if maybe I need a better pillow or to get more vitamin D” or whatever. Seriously?
artdigital 2y ago
> I've often thought that my actual rhythm is for a 25-26 hour day To be fair, we're all like this. The average length of Circadian Cycle is closer to 25h than 24h when isolated: https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/info/cycle_length.php https://www.circadiansleepdisorders.org/info/cycle_length.ph...
- OJFord 2y ago
  I was all ready to agree because I always feel I want >24h, but that link is actually correcting earlier studies finding 25h to say no it is more like 24h on average (once isolated from screens)?
left-struck 2y ago
I used to do this as well sort of, my schedule would shift by a few hours every day. I found that it had a significant impact on my mental health when I was sleeping through the day though, and it made it difficult to participate in various aspects of society like work, education and in person social things. I was eventually able to “fix” it by taking melatonin as a supplement to fix a short term schedule and being super anal about not letting people pressure me into playing games late or staying out late. I basically reframed sleeping hygiene as a primary health concern and that worked for me. Anyway if your schedule doesn’t impact you in a negative way then go for it

deergomoo 2y ago

I really hoped I’d grow out of wanting to sleep ~3-11am but it’s just never happened. No matter how tired I am during the day, I get a second wind around 8pm and have to force myself to go to bed at a reasonable hour during the work week because I won’t get sleepy, even if I stay away from screens. Unfortunately I really enjoy night time, so I regularly completely fail at that task. I can’t remember the last time I woke up feeling rested, and yet here I am on Hacker News at 1:48am. At least I can sleep in tomorrow.

MengerSponge 2y ago
Do you drink any caffeine?
- deergomoo 2y ago
  Usually just one cup of coffee on weekday mornings, but in general caffeine does not seem to perk me up, keep me awake, or have any noticeable effect besides jump starting my digestive system. I could (and have done, in the past) have a coffee at 2am and go to sleep around 3 no problem. In my adult life I have ranged between 5-6 cups a day when I used to go into the office and none at all during periods where I just fell out of the habit of making any.
  - noduerme 2y ago
    >> besides jump starting my digestive system lol. Same here. Keeping your digestive system on track with your sleep cycle deserves a whole separate discussion. For those of us who've discovered coffee and cigarettes, usually the sight of one or the other is enough to get ya goin'
    - deergomoo 2y ago
      My buddy refers to it as “the strike” heh. First coffee (or cigarette for him) of the day, you better be near a bathroom.
lucb1e 2y ago

colechristensen 2y ago

I’ve been in this situation and the problem is basically that the various internal clocks aren’t getting good quality information to keep them in sync. Light, food, and exercise and the timing of them have a big impact.