8 ms·

I think that the period we're in right now is also a very similar watershed. What used to be quite 'powerful' swear words such as 'fuck' and shit' are now just

• dingnuts 2y ago
  John McWhorter wrote a whole book about this a few years ago
  • eigenspace 2y ago
    Well, I didn't read that book but it probably influenced someone who then communicated that idea to me. I should check it out.
• cut3 2y ago
  The words that must not be named are and always have been informal speech in online multiplayer voice chats.
  • SoftTalker 2y ago
    Yes, they have always been context-dependent. They can be perfectly acceptable in some situations and absolutely forbidden in others.
  • eigenspace 2y ago
    Mainly due to anonymity and lack of consequences. As the public becomes less and less tolerant of these words, pressure to moderate such behaviour has increased. That stuff has been scrubbed out of text communication in multiplayer games for ages now, and I think it'll be forcibly removed from voice communication with increasing frequency soon.
    • some_random 2y ago
      It is right now, in a few games you can report people for using slurs in voice chat at which point it's saved for review. In some cases the reporter gets some kind of reward for actioned reports. However, this is only in the largest games. Gaming is now one of if not the most valuable media industries out there and only growing, however there are still a lot of niche games where either for cultural or demand reasons there's zero interest in censorship. Go check Wargame Red Dragon global chat for instance.
      • eigenspace 2y ago
        Sure. But there's always been dark alleys where people freely said things that respectable memebers of society would lose their jobs for saying. That doesn't mean that those words aren't curse words. In fact, it's a sign that they are curse words. It wouldn't be so edgy to say them if they weren't so heavily frowned upon by "polite society"
        • some_random 2y ago
          Oh to be clear I'm not arguing that they're not curse words at all, in fact the increased censorship in high profile spaces like popular video games is evidence they are curse words.
    • klooney 2y ago
      It's also a class divide- the slurs are more serious for fancier people.
• SoftTalker 2y ago
  Those aren't curse words, they are slurs. Curse words are just verbal punctuation marks used for emphasis. 'Fuck' and 'shit' never carried the element of hate that slur words do.
  • deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  • eigenspace 2y ago
    I think the fact that you feel that way shows how much our culture has lost its taboos around its traditional curse words. I think maybe an easier example to consider would to be to put 'fuck' and 'shit' aside (since its even harder to understand how these were ever really taboo), and instead consider the older more religiously inspired curses like 'damn it', 'blood the mary', etc. These curses (in certain circles) were hugely taboo because in the worldview of the times, they were deeply harmful to use on a metaphysical / spiritual level. You were doing real harm in the world by exclaiming "damn it to hell!" or telling someone "go to hell!". This is perhaps hard for us in our current culture where even even amongst people who claim to be religious, almost everyone would just view those as empty words, but I do think there's a real case to be made that our ancestors would have understood such curses in a very similar way to the way we understand and treat slurs today.
    • SoftTalker 2y ago
      I do agree actually. And I guess that I'd say there are "swear" words (crude verbal punctuation) and "curse" words in the sense that you describe. I do know people who think "g-- damn it" is a far worse thing to say than 'fucking piece of shit' for example.
      • jermaustin1 2y ago
        > I do know people who think "g-- damn it" is a far worse thing to say than 'fucking piece of shit' for example. That would be my mother. Hasn't been to church in decades, curses like a sailor, but will never take the lord's name in vain. Although, maybe with enough time, she will, it took her until she was 60 before she started saying 'fuck.'
• joshdavham 2y ago
  > I think that the period we're in right now is also a very similar watershed. I think you’re right. In the article, they mentioned that words denigrating the holy or sacred were the most offensive while in more recent times the most offensive words became words referring bodily functions, sex, etc. But now as you suggest, the most taboo words in the English language are slurs denigrating entire groups like various ethnic groups, religious groups, women and the elderly.
  • 4star3star 2y ago
    The elderly? I'm drawing a blank.
    • hyeonwho4 2y ago
      I'm guessing that one is "Boomer", but I don't think it is so taboo that it cannot be uttered yet.
      • zxexz 2y ago
        Depends on the context and social circle, like lots of post-slang terms for a class. It can be endearing (or endearing and patronizing), a general insult, a common adjective…
        • cduzz 2y ago
          There's obscenity and there's violence. Some words imply the person you're insulting is unsavory. Some words imply "I have power over you such that I can do anything I want and you can't stop me." The degree to which this violence is allowed in a culture also conveys the power of the word in play.
          • zxexz 2y ago
            I just saw your response to this - that's an excellent and concise way to explain this. Thank you. There're many categories of violence, and semantic violence can evoke any and all of those.
• mindslight 2y ago
  I've entertained this idea for some time, but I can't really see how they can develop into full blown general curse words. I have to consider that perhaps I'm now just part of the crowd that holds them as sacred, and that newer generations will start intelligently using them as swears and slowly grow their acceptance, but that still doesn't feel very compelling. I read this article trying to pull out any parallels to see what I might be missing, but still didn't get anything. I think that kind of progression has actually run its course within the narrower contexts it has been able to - take back the word empowerment, etc. But breaking out into the general societal context seems impossible as long as those words still acutely hurt significant contingents of people, as most people don't want to casually engage in hurtful behavior. Then again if America loses the election on Tuesday, perhaps society will just regress to the point where most people are just fine stoking group hatred (it's cheaper than bread or professional circuses, after all!), and "general" acceptance will happen that way. I still don't personally see myself taking part though, despite being otherwise quite enthusiastic about swearing.
  • eigenspace 2y ago
    > I've entertained this idea for some time, but I can't really see how they can develop into full blown general curse words. I think what you mean by "full blown general curse words" is what I'd actually call "faded dying curse words" if what you mean is that it's something you could say in casual conversation without people thinking less of you. By the point that a curse word is used for emphatic punctuation, it's because the people using it don't actually believe the word holds real power to do harm, it just carries residual power because of a cultural memory of a time where it was taboo to say the word. So I think these slurs would only become part of a regular persons vocabulary of merely 'rude' words if regular people stopped thinking they were doing real harm by uttering them.
    • mindslight 2y ago
      But there are still plenty of casual contexts where one can use traditional curse words, and they will still have an impact. Making people think less of you is not the main dynamic of curse words (and they don't have a monopoly on that either!). Rather cursing is about openly transgressing social mores to display some combination of exceptional emotion plus (not being beholden to) social status. It's basically saying "I'm going to reject this thing you care about." So unless those words stop being routinely used for ignorant personal attacks, I don't see how swearing with racial slurs could become trendy for anybody but racists rejecting the idea that racism continues to be a problem. A decade ago I had more of an idealist post-racist outlook and could have believed that in a few more decades we'd be at the point where these words would have lost their deeply personal punch, with their only lingering effect being to cause pearl clutching (and who doesn't want to needle pearl clutchers?). But at this point that looks to be a pipe dream. Which is why I say it's a similar dynamic of words being off limits, but it's not actually the same. Some social mores have fundamental merit, believe it or not.
• bigstrat2003 2y ago
  > What used to be quite 'powerful' swear words such as 'fuck' and shit' are now just a normal part of informal speech, that don't carry any actual taboo. Maybe in some social circles, but in most circles I run in, saying "fuck" is still considered quite offensive.
  • eigenspace 2y ago
    Is it considered to be offensive though, or is it just a breach of protocol? I don't doubt that there are social circles where it's truly a noxiously offensive word, but in much much more circles, it's just improper or inappropriate to say, which is very different.
    • freedomben 2y ago
      In the Mormon culture, it is definitely offensive, not just a protocol breach. If you consider what FCC rules were in place for the 60s and 70s, that will give you a pretty good guage for what's appropriate for Mormons.
  • GuB-42 2y ago
    I am not aware of social circles nowadays where words like "fuck" and "shit" are worse than racial slurs. Even when racial slurs are accepted they are still usually considered stronger words than "fuck".
    • thenewwazoo 2y ago
      There are absolutely racist evangelical christian circles where saying "fuck" will you get you a stern reproach but using the "hard R" when talking about black people is not worthy of note.
• deleted 2y ago
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• hifromwork 2y ago
  Fully agree. As a non-native English speaker, I always thought English doesn't have "real" curse words, and the only actual (taboo) curse words I know are so-called "n-word" and similar. It's hard for me to explain the difference, but (as an educated and relatively eloquent person) I would really hesitate (as in, physically struggle with my throat) to curse in my language aloud in a public place. Saying them among my friends or family would be seen as between mildly offensive and absolutely unacceptable. When hearing someone curse in public, I instinctively assume they're uneducated or intoxicated. Meanwhile, i can freely swear in English among the same people (and online, and in most situations abroad). My mother, who I have never heard curse in my language, says "shit" like it was "oh darn". I see English swear words everywhere online. They really don't feel like a taboo to me.
  • 4star3star 2y ago
    I would say it's totally normal for a 2nd language's swear words to have much less impact on one's psyche than one's maternal language.
    • eigenspace 2y ago
      That's definitely true, but I think you're also likely also just not understanding that in some cultures, there really are taboo words that are not considered okay to say under really any context. Again, think of how radioactive "the N-word" is in all but the most radical of english speaking circles nowadays. Other languages have things like this with different histories and reasons.
    • pessimizer 2y ago
      It's an extremely common pitfall for second language learners to swear too casually. You've been yelled at for swearing (or screwing up honorifics) in your own language, but that still hasn't happened to you enough in your second language. It will. I've tutear'd people in what would be casual settings for Americans and really felt the chill instantly.
  • 082349872349872 2y ago
    > I see English swear words everywhere online With regard to online (and music, and movies): have you paid attention to the social register in which you're seeing them used?
• gsk22 2y ago
  The interesting thing is that some of the "new" taboo words are only taboo for certain groups of people. The N-word has been reclaimed by people of color, but remains taboo for others to say. The F-slur is in the process of being reclaimed by gay people, but remains taboo for everyone else. I can't think of any parallels in past English curse words -- "fuck" was taboo no matter who you were.
  • selimthegrim 2y ago
    Only certain people of color.
    • gsk22 2y ago
      Sure. I was necessarily speaking in generalities. There are always exceptions.
      • dangsucksdick1 2y ago
        [dead]
  • haccount 2y ago
    We're on the internet, anonymously discussing swear words, you can just type out nigger. There's still large segments of the internet not subject to hysterical brigades of thought police demanding every typed word be cross referenced with the ever-growing Manual of Self-Censorship and Conformity with Whoever Is Offended In The Loudest Manner.
    • mmooss 2y ago
      Just because you can get away with it, doesn't mean you should. And it seems you agree: why create a new account?
      • _bin_ 2y ago
        Because there are insane people who will try to ruin your job and life over it, even if you use it in a factual, rather than personal, context. Yesterday on twitter someone posted reddit screenshots of a ukrainian dude in a thread. He said he was voting for trump and his account was semi-public, and some absolute sociopath started sending screenshots of it to every university and internship program he could think of.
• downrightmike 2y ago
  Fucking right
• teractiveodular 2y ago
  Those are slurs, not curse words. Nobody yells the N-word when they accidentally hit their thumb with a hammer.
  • haccount 2y ago
    [dead]
  • wholinator2 2y ago
    Uhm, there definitely are people who do that. There used to be a lot more of them but i think you just haven't been around the types of people who do that long enough to observe that behavior. There is still a rather large portion of some "backwaters" that use all the old words very much conversationally
• _bin_ 2y ago
  Is this uniformly true? Perhaps in parts of the internet, or perhaps amongst some social groups but not others. I live in a smaller center-right city in the south and they’re not used casually, though with more liberality than our grandparents might’ve done. Or by drunks, but drunks have always been prone to cussing. By contrast, some of what you say is too offensive seems pretty common to me. It’s not polite, but you’re much more likely to hear someone use retard or faggot than drop an f-bomb. Maybe it’s just my social circle. I do notice people from other parts of the country are more like you say.
• dyauspitr 2y ago
  Those are slurs and something just as powerful has always existed depending on the contexts of the time.
• mmooss 2y ago
  > What used to be quite 'powerful' swear words such as 'fuck' and shit' are now just a normal part of informal speech, that don't carry any actual taboo. Those words would be socially disqualifying in many places I go, such as business meetings, most interactions with adults, most public interactions (for example, with a clerk at a store).
  • eigenspace 2y ago
    In most cases for most people, those would be socially disqualifying because it'd be breach of etiquette. You would be acting in a distasteful way that people find inappropriate. Now compare that to how life altering it would be for you if you were dropping the 'N-word' in such situations. The difference is that people really do believe the 'N-word' has real power to do harm. It's not just a rude word, it's an 'evil' word (which is what curses used to be).