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It almost feels easier to disassemble and resew the shirt from recycled fabric. I’m mostly joking, but my point is that physical AI probably implies a complete

It almost feels easier to disassemble and resew the shirt from recycled fabric. I’m mostly joking, but my point is that physical AI probably implies a complete rethink of every individual routine from first principles: why fold the shirt at all? Why not just-in-time-ironing? We’re focusing on the hard problems because we’re imitating how a human with limited resources would approach the issue. If you asked a robot to provide you with a fresh and clean shirt every morning - would a home washing machine come into the equation? My best answer is “maybe”, which implies some huge portion of our normal routines will disappear instead of being automated. If restaurants require no staff, why even have a home kitchen? We’re heading towards a cultural revolution as much as a technology one. It’s time to find out what value our values really have.

trhway 2y ago
>we’re imitating how a human with limited resources would approach the issue in particular the robots with only 2 hands when it could be 3 or 4 and not necessarily the same - say 3 of the same from 3 directions in the horizontal plane and one from above, with probably different "fingers". More hands allows say pipelining the tasks execution, like staged clothes holding or shooting an RPG while one of the hands already ready to put another warhead into the barrel (generally 2 persons job for RPG or mortar) - again our imagination is severely limited by 2 hands and even in such case we've evolved minimal specialization, ie. right/left-handedness. >If restaurants require no staff, why even have a home kitchen? We’re heading towards a cultural revolution as much as a technology one. that seems already underway, with Uber[Eats] drivers being the "robots". >It almost feels easier to disassemble and resew the shirt from recycled fabric. shred and 3d reprint in a new style. Again, we are already having it in the 0.3 version - the "fast fashion". So we already can preview and project how it would look like in the version 1.0. No kitchen, no washing machines, flat displays or better AR glasses - small urban apartment is enough, a cell like in 5th element, basically a cell in beehive, ... a cell, still more than in Matrix :)
- chrischen 2y ago
  > that seems already underway, with Uber[Eats] drivers being the "robots". One of the primary benefits of automation is actually a reduction of costs. Uber eats did reduce delivery costs a bit, but probably not to the same order of magnitude true automation could achieve. Historically, you could always "automate" by having some guy do it, but the difference between having a bunch of people copy a book and a mechanical printing press do it is revolutionary.
- ben_w 2y ago
  > shred and 3d reprint in a new style. Again, we are already having it in the 0.3 version - the "fast fashion" Or bioengineering living clothes. I've heard several hypotheses for which evolutionary pressures took away our natural body fur and how we got clothing in the first place, but for all the ones I've heard, if we are so resource unbounded that any of the other options makes sense then we may well also be so unbounded as to return to the absence of clothing entirely.
TylerE 2y ago
That could just as easily be turned on it's head too - if you don't need skilled (or any) staff to shop, cook, serve, and then washup, why would you ever NOT eat at home? Especially if it can operate very quietly, one fairly slow robot could do probably all the housework, and could do it at night when it's literally out of sight and out of mind. It would feel like magic. You'd wake up every morning to a clean house and hot breakfast.
- closewith 2y ago
  Most people go to restaurants because of the social benefits, not the labour savings. The idea of people or groups of people siloing themselves into their ultra-convenient homes and never interact with others is a dystopia and a sure sign of an already broken community.
  - exe34 2y ago
    hey now, some of us are fed up being around other people.
  - bongobingo1 2y ago
    Isn't that the predominant trend already? Since like, the 70s.
  - netruk44 2y ago
    Well, that feels like a rather extreme jump to conclusions, and was certainly not something I thought the GP comment was even suggesting. I don't see any reason why people couldn't adjust from meeting friends at restaurants to hosting friends at home instead. (Unless, of course, your living space is limited) If you aren't cooking and cleaning up after, what's the difference between that and meeting someone at a restaurant?
    - astura 2y ago
      I can think of some differences: 1) You get out of your house. 2) You don't have leftovers from a big meal to deal with. 3) You can duck out early without having to kick everyone out.. 4) you can fit a LOT more people at a restaurant.
maxerickson 2y ago
If robots are doing everything, people will have bigger kitchens...
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  So long as the robots didn't eliminate their job (and make it very difficult to get another job), in which case they'll have a smaller kitchen (or no kitchen).
  - maxerickson 2y ago
    Typically, as society has gotten wealthier, the average standard of living has increased. That's just thousands of years of history though.
harimau777 2y ago
It likely depends on the quality of the clothing. If we are talking about a fairly standardized and utilitarian outfit like a t-shirt and straight leg jeans then that would make automated sewing easier. On the other hand, if someone wants to wear clothing that flatters their body type and sense of style, then the robot is going to need to be able to make different patterns. Things like different types of yokes, pleats, princess seams, collar types, etc. The next step is clothing that is tailored for an individual. In this case the robot would need to be able to add darts and other modifications in order to adjust the fit. Note that this and the previous step may need to take into account the behavior of the fabric; e.g. how does it stretch. Finally, in the realm of high end tailoring you have features that are used precisely because they must be done by hand. That being said, there is precedent for what you are suggesting: traditionally kimonos are unsewn when they are washed and then reassembled.
mmcdermott 2y ago
> It’s time to find out what value our values really have. Which is exciting, as long as the net results are better for human beings. I really don't want to see us make human experience worse to ensure that AI is able to be more successful. That defeats the purpose of any technological invention.
- marricks 2y ago
  Touchscreens in cars is a great example of making the human experience worse for the sake of tech. Everyone prefers physical tactile buttons for a set interface, but that stands in the way of progress for cars! Guess where the industry is going...
  - ElevenLathe 2y ago
    I think that saying this phenomenon is change "for the sake of tech" or for "progress" elides the fact that it is good for some people. Specifically, it is good for auto executives and their shareholders (in their capacity as executives and shareholders, though presumably many of them are drivers as well). It's a cost measure that makes customers' lives worse (and more dangerous) for the entire life of the car in exchange for pennies in their pocket now. This isn't technology getting its way or anything, but people using their power to further their own interests with indifference to the interests of others. That's not new, just the details are.
  - insane_dreamer 2y ago
    That's a marketing issue "look OUR car has this shiny big touchscreen now!" which car manufacturers think -- or thought -- users would prefer and buy (with Tesla leading the way). That may change if there is user blowback. (Just drove a new BMW Series 4 the other day and it had the big touch screen but retained the buttons/controls because they're better for settings you change often or while driving. Touchscreen is better for settings you change less frequently or while not driving (like charging).
  - NoLinkToMe 2y ago
    Personally I really love the combination of both. I want to use physical buttons for things like signalling, lights etc. And I want to use software on screens for things like navigation, music, analytics etc.
modeless 2y ago
Washing and folding clothes won't become obsolete. But washing machines might. The robot can "hand" wash your clothes while you sleep. You can reclaim the space that your washing machine took up. Same with the dishwasher. No need to save labor means no need for labor saving devices!
sangnoir 2y ago
> I’m mostly joking, but my point is that physical AI probably implies a complete rethink of every individual routine from first principles: why fold the shirt at all? You may have skipped over how clothes are stored and organized in your first principle exercise. Clothes are folded because it saves space and makes it easier to find and select an individual piece of clothing.
dclowd9901 2y ago
I’m sure for _some_ people there’s _some_ truth to what you say. Why fold clothes? Because they take up less room when you fold them. Why have a home kitchen? Because some people actually enjoy cooking at home. I think the bigger point here is a robot that conforms to the way humans work. You seem to be implying that if we just had better focused processes, we could do away with some vestiges of our old way of living, which seems to be the exact opposite point of building an AGI robot.
- jacobr1 2y ago
  Like the old (apocryphal?) saying from Ford that if they asked the customers what they want, they would have requested a faster horse. You can find similar statements people have found from old "man on the street" TV interviews about mobile phones. You have people saying they can use them to call a friend to ask for directions. Or call to ask if a store is open, or if they have an item in stock. Or to make last minute dinner reservations. Turns out they didn't really need to want to "call" to do these things, that was just the previous tech-generation way to get that info and having a mobile app works much better in (many) cases. Home robotics is going to enable us to reconsider other patterns, that still serve the same outcome. Some will be worse, some better, but on net things will settle out over time. Even more radical, why keep the same clothes at all? If you can 3d print exactly what you want on demand, with perfect fit, and recycle it after wear, do you even need laundry? Maybe what you need is instead of a closet is some kind of 3d imager of your body / fabrication room.

trhway 2y ago

>we’re imitating how a human with limited resources would approach the issue in particular the robots with only 2 hands when it could be 3 or 4 and not necessarily the same - say 3 of the same from 3 directions in the horizontal plane and one from above, with probably different "fingers". More hands allows say pipelining the tasks execution, like staged clothes holding or shooting an RPG while one of the hands already ready to put another warhead into the barrel (generally 2 persons job for RPG or mortar) - again our imagination is severely limited by 2 hands and even in such case we've evolved minimal specialization, ie. right/left-handedness. >If restaurants require no staff, why even have a home kitchen? We’re heading towards a cultural revolution as much as a technology one. that seems already underway, with Uber[Eats] drivers being the "robots". >It almost feels easier to disassemble and resew the shirt from recycled fabric. shred and 3d reprint in a new style. Again, we are already having it in the 0.3 version - the "fast fashion". So we already can preview and project how it would look like in the version 1.0. No kitchen, no washing machines, flat displays or better AR glasses - small urban apartment is enough, a cell like in 5th element, basically a cell in beehive, ... a cell, still more than in Matrix :)

chrischen 2y ago
> that seems already underway, with Uber[Eats] drivers being the "robots". One of the primary benefits of automation is actually a reduction of costs. Uber eats did reduce delivery costs a bit, but probably not to the same order of magnitude true automation could achieve. Historically, you could always "automate" by having some guy do it, but the difference between having a bunch of people copy a book and a mechanical printing press do it is revolutionary.
ben_w 2y ago
> shred and 3d reprint in a new style. Again, we are already having it in the 0.3 version - the "fast fashion" Or bioengineering living clothes. I've heard several hypotheses for which evolutionary pressures took away our natural body fur and how we got clothing in the first place, but for all the ones I've heard, if we are so resource unbounded that any of the other options makes sense then we may well also be so unbounded as to return to the absence of clothing entirely.

TylerE 2y ago

That could just as easily be turned on it's head too - if you don't need skilled (or any) staff to shop, cook, serve, and then washup, why would you ever NOT eat at home? Especially if it can operate very quietly, one fairly slow robot could do probably all the housework, and could do it at night when it's literally out of sight and out of mind. It would feel like magic. You'd wake up every morning to a clean house and hot breakfast.

closewith 2y ago
Most people go to restaurants because of the social benefits, not the labour savings. The idea of people or groups of people siloing themselves into their ultra-convenient homes and never interact with others is a dystopia and a sure sign of an already broken community.
- exe34 2y ago
  hey now, some of us are fed up being around other people.
- bongobingo1 2y ago
  Isn't that the predominant trend already? Since like, the 70s.
- netruk44 2y ago
  Well, that feels like a rather extreme jump to conclusions, and was certainly not something I thought the GP comment was even suggesting. I don't see any reason why people couldn't adjust from meeting friends at restaurants to hosting friends at home instead. (Unless, of course, your living space is limited) If you aren't cooking and cleaning up after, what's the difference between that and meeting someone at a restaurant?
  - astura 2y ago
    I can think of some differences: 1) You get out of your house. 2) You don't have leftovers from a big meal to deal with. 3) You can duck out early without having to kick everyone out.. 4) you can fit a LOT more people at a restaurant.

maxerickson 2y ago

If robots are doing everything, people will have bigger kitchens...

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
insane_dreamer 2y ago
So long as the robots didn't eliminate their job (and make it very difficult to get another job), in which case they'll have a smaller kitchen (or no kitchen).
- maxerickson 2y ago
  Typically, as society has gotten wealthier, the average standard of living has increased. That's just thousands of years of history though.

harimau777 2y ago

It likely depends on the quality of the clothing. If we are talking about a fairly standardized and utilitarian outfit like a t-shirt and straight leg jeans then that would make automated sewing easier. On the other hand, if someone wants to wear clothing that flatters their body type and sense of style, then the robot is going to need to be able to make different patterns. Things like different types of yokes, pleats, princess seams, collar types, etc. The next step is clothing that is tailored for an individual. In this case the robot would need to be able to add darts and other modifications in order to adjust the fit. Note that this and the previous step may need to take into account the behavior of the fabric; e.g. how does it stretch. Finally, in the realm of high end tailoring you have features that are used precisely because they must be done by hand. That being said, there is precedent for what you are suggesting: traditionally kimonos are unsewn when they are washed and then reassembled.

mmcdermott 2y ago

> It’s time to find out what value our values really have. Which is exciting, as long as the net results are better for human beings. I really don't want to see us make human experience worse to ensure that AI is able to be more successful. That defeats the purpose of any technological invention.

marricks 2y ago
Touchscreens in cars is a great example of making the human experience worse for the sake of tech. Everyone prefers physical tactile buttons for a set interface, but that stands in the way of progress for cars! Guess where the industry is going...
- ElevenLathe 2y ago
  I think that saying this phenomenon is change "for the sake of tech" or for "progress" elides the fact that it is good for some people. Specifically, it is good for auto executives and their shareholders (in their capacity as executives and shareholders, though presumably many of them are drivers as well). It's a cost measure that makes customers' lives worse (and more dangerous) for the entire life of the car in exchange for pennies in their pocket now. This isn't technology getting its way or anything, but people using their power to further their own interests with indifference to the interests of others. That's not new, just the details are.
- insane_dreamer 2y ago
  That's a marketing issue "look OUR car has this shiny big touchscreen now!" which car manufacturers think -- or thought -- users would prefer and buy (with Tesla leading the way). That may change if there is user blowback. (Just drove a new BMW Series 4 the other day and it had the big touch screen but retained the buttons/controls because they're better for settings you change often or while driving. Touchscreen is better for settings you change less frequently or while not driving (like charging).
- NoLinkToMe 2y ago
  Personally I really love the combination of both. I want to use physical buttons for things like signalling, lights etc. And I want to use software on screens for things like navigation, music, analytics etc.

modeless 2y ago

Washing and folding clothes won't become obsolete. But washing machines might. The robot can "hand" wash your clothes while you sleep. You can reclaim the space that your washing machine took up. Same with the dishwasher. No need to save labor means no need for labor saving devices!

sangnoir 2y ago

> I’m mostly joking, but my point is that physical AI probably implies a complete rethink of every individual routine from first principles: why fold the shirt at all? You may have skipped over how clothes are stored and organized in your first principle exercise. Clothes are folded because it saves space and makes it easier to find and select an individual piece of clothing.

dclowd9901 2y ago

I’m sure for _some_ people there’s _some_ truth to what you say. Why fold clothes? Because they take up less room when you fold them. Why have a home kitchen? Because some people actually enjoy cooking at home. I think the bigger point here is a robot that conforms to the way humans work. You seem to be implying that if we just had better focused processes, we could do away with some vestiges of our old way of living, which seems to be the exact opposite point of building an AGI robot.

jacobr1 2y ago
Like the old (apocryphal?) saying from Ford that if they asked the customers what they want, they would have requested a faster horse. You can find similar statements people have found from old "man on the street" TV interviews about mobile phones. You have people saying they can use them to call a friend to ask for directions. Or call to ask if a store is open, or if they have an item in stock. Or to make last minute dinner reservations. Turns out they didn't really need to want to "call" to do these things, that was just the previous tech-generation way to get that info and having a mobile app works much better in (many) cases. Home robotics is going to enable us to reconsider other patterns, that still serve the same outcome. Some will be worse, some better, but on net things will settle out over time. Even more radical, why keep the same clothes at all? If you can 3d print exactly what you want on demand, with perfect fit, and recycle it after wear, do you even need laundry? Maybe what you need is instead of a closet is some kind of 3d imager of your body / fabrication room.