4 ms·

That was kinda my point - my friend had been so conditioned by the "can they vote" thing that he genuinely thought that non-citizens could legally vote in US el

That was kinda my point - my friend had been so conditioned by the "can they vote" thing that he genuinely thought that non-citizens could legally vote in US elections. If I had phrased the question as "is it legal for non-citizens to vote in US elections?" then that might have illustrated my point better (and we wouldn't be going down this rabbit hole, though the rabbit hole is informative in itself).

labster 2y ago
The fact that the rabbit hole exists at all means that our hope for instant, reliable answers is likely doomed. Avoiding politics entirely, I could ask “does gravity curve spacetime?”, and while “yes” is a reasonably accurate answer, so is a digression into quantum gravity, or even saying that we’re not sure spacetime really exists outside of being a good abstraction.
- dataflow 2y ago
  Thanks, yeah, exactly. Like, the best answer to a question can really depend on who's asking it, who's answering it, or what they intend to use the answer for. To give a much simpler example: - If an 8-year-old asks "can you mix oil and water", the right answer is "no". If a student is asked that question on a school exam, the right answer is also "no". - If a chemist asks "can you mix oil and water", the right answer is "yes, and here's how: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJeWklggSpY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJeWklggSpY"
  - marcus_holmes 2y ago
    Nice example :) So your answer to "Who gets to decide what's true?" is basically "there is no truth, and any truth that there might be is relative to the person asking the question". Is that right? I think that's probably technically accurate, and also practically useless. Even damaging. I saw this in the climate arguments: two sets of different facts led to two different versions of the truth, which led to two completely irreconcilable points of view. Essentially two sets of people shouting "no, but..." and "well, actually..." at each other, pointing to two completely different truths, both supported by two completely different sets of facts. At some point we as a society need to agree on our truth in order to get anything done.
    - the_gipsy 2y ago
      Yes. This thread reads a bit like a convo between AIs, almost but not quite talking past each other.
    - sharpshadow 2y ago
      I might disagree with that and agree on the context approach. „The Truth“ does not exist and it would be much more helpful to have context related answers without one mayor view which needs to dominate.
    - hackable_sand 2y ago
      > At some point we as a society need to agree on our truth in order to get anything done. These are known as half-truths. We do settle for lies in order to do whatever it is people feel they need to do. We also settle for lies because there are just things we don't understand yet, but our models are currently correct, and possibly collapsing over millenia to a stable truth.
      - labster 2y ago
        As someone who writes fiction, I’d like to note that one often needs to write really complex lies in order to effectively transmit a single truth. You can’t just tell people anything, you have to prepare the mind to receive the knowledge.
        bitcoin_anon 2y ago
        What do you think of Ayn Rand’s works of fiction?
        labster 2y ago
        Generally as lies wrapped in lies. You can use the same techniques to push a falsehood as well. Which is not to say Rand did not actually believe her message — she did, which is why the books are so effective. But they have given the upper class an exaggerated sense of their own importance, and a conviction that government only stands in their way. Meanwhile over in reality, the more a state is run by oligarchs, the worse a place it is to live.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    IDK, if my 5-year-old asks "can you mix oil and water", I'll tell her, "sorta - if you just pour them into the same container and mix with a spoon, then no; if you add some stuff and know how, then yes - in fact, it's exactly what mayonnaise is". That I had to be 35 before I learned that mayo is basically water mixed with oil, held together by eggs, it's an indication of what kind of education about the world we were getting...
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - dataflow 2y ago
      At that point you're just changing the physical scenario the question was asking about, and answering about a different scenario entirely. You might as well respond to "can humans fly?" with "yes, with an airplane". You can certainly reply like that to your 5yo, but it completely misses the point I was making. The video I linked to didn't suddenly modify the outcome being asked about. What it ended up with really was a mixture of plain oil and water, with no other ingredient ever being added to it.
  - zild3d 2y ago
    Then you are just lying to the 8 year old. Sure you can adapt how much context you give based on who's asking, but if it's something factual like this it really shouldn't change from a yes to a no. If you think they _meant_ to ask a different question that is less vague, it can be clarified "Water and oil do not mix by hand. However water and oil can mix under some specific conditions like a vacuum, do you want to discuss that in more detail?"
    - labster 2y ago
      Eight year old proceeds to pour oil and water into a vacuum cleaner.

labster 2y ago

The fact that the rabbit hole exists at all means that our hope for instant, reliable answers is likely doomed. Avoiding politics entirely, I could ask “does gravity curve spacetime?”, and while “yes” is a reasonably accurate answer, so is a digression into quantum gravity, or even saying that we’re not sure spacetime really exists outside of being a good abstraction.

dataflow 2y ago
Thanks, yeah, exactly. Like, the best answer to a question can really depend on who's asking it, who's answering it, or what they intend to use the answer for. To give a much simpler example: - If an 8-year-old asks "can you mix oil and water", the right answer is "no". If a student is asked that question on a school exam, the right answer is also "no". - If a chemist asks "can you mix oil and water", the right answer is "yes, and here's how: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJeWklggSpY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJeWklggSpY"
- marcus_holmes 2y ago
  Nice example :) So your answer to "Who gets to decide what's true?" is basically "there is no truth, and any truth that there might be is relative to the person asking the question". Is that right? I think that's probably technically accurate, and also practically useless. Even damaging. I saw this in the climate arguments: two sets of different facts led to two different versions of the truth, which led to two completely irreconcilable points of view. Essentially two sets of people shouting "no, but..." and "well, actually..." at each other, pointing to two completely different truths, both supported by two completely different sets of facts. At some point we as a society need to agree on our truth in order to get anything done.
  - the_gipsy 2y ago
    Yes. This thread reads a bit like a convo between AIs, almost but not quite talking past each other.
  - sharpshadow 2y ago
    I might disagree with that and agree on the context approach. „The Truth“ does not exist and it would be much more helpful to have context related answers without one mayor view which needs to dominate.
  - hackable_sand 2y ago
    > At some point we as a society need to agree on our truth in order to get anything done. These are known as half-truths. We do settle for lies in order to do whatever it is people feel they need to do. We also settle for lies because there are just things we don't understand yet, but our models are currently correct, and possibly collapsing over millenia to a stable truth.
    - labster 2y ago
      As someone who writes fiction, I’d like to note that one often needs to write really complex lies in order to effectively transmit a single truth. You can’t just tell people anything, you have to prepare the mind to receive the knowledge.
      - bitcoin_anon 2y ago
        What do you think of Ayn Rand’s works of fiction?
        labster 2y ago
        Generally as lies wrapped in lies. You can use the same techniques to push a falsehood as well. Which is not to say Rand did not actually believe her message — she did, which is why the books are so effective. But they have given the upper class an exaggerated sense of their own importance, and a conviction that government only stands in their way. Meanwhile over in reality, the more a state is run by oligarchs, the worse a place it is to live.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  IDK, if my 5-year-old asks "can you mix oil and water", I'll tell her, "sorta - if you just pour them into the same container and mix with a spoon, then no; if you add some stuff and know how, then yes - in fact, it's exactly what mayonnaise is". That I had to be 35 before I learned that mayo is basically water mixed with oil, held together by eggs, it's an indication of what kind of education about the world we were getting...
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - dataflow 2y ago
    At that point you're just changing the physical scenario the question was asking about, and answering about a different scenario entirely. You might as well respond to "can humans fly?" with "yes, with an airplane". You can certainly reply like that to your 5yo, but it completely misses the point I was making. The video I linked to didn't suddenly modify the outcome being asked about. What it ended up with really was a mixture of plain oil and water, with no other ingredient ever being added to it.
- zild3d 2y ago
  Then you are just lying to the 8 year old. Sure you can adapt how much context you give based on who's asking, but if it's something factual like this it really shouldn't change from a yes to a no. If you think they _meant_ to ask a different question that is less vague, it can be clarified "Water and oil do not mix by hand. However water and oil can mix under some specific conditions like a vacuum, do you want to discuss that in more detail?"
  - labster 2y ago
    Eight year old proceeds to pour oil and water into a vacuum cleaner.