5 ms·

> The concern I have with LLMs replacing search is that once it starts being monetized with ads or propaganda, it's going to be very dangerous. Not to mention

> The concern I have with LLMs replacing search is that once it starts being monetized with ads or propaganda, it's going to be very dangerous. Not to mention that users consuming most content through a middle-man completely breaks most publishers business models. Traditional search is a mutually beneficial arrangement, but LLM search is parasitic. Expect to see a lot more technical countermeasures and/or lawsuits against LLM search engines which regurgitate so much material that they effectively replace the need to visit the original publisher.

kylebenzle 2y ago
Yes, I also don't understand how LLM based compaines expect people to keep producing contect for them for free.
- dageshi 2y ago
  I think they're gonna have to pay. The way reddit limited access to their API and got google to pay for access. Some variation of that but on a wider scale.
  - ileonichwiesz 2y ago
    But that breaks OpenAI’s (et al) entire business model. Those AI companies can barely afford to operate as it is, while they scrape the entire web for free. I don’t see how they could keep above water once every website starts paywalling their stuff.
    - 8n4vidtmkvmk 2y ago
      Is it the training or running costs that are putting them in debt? Presumably we'll eventually get to a point where the models are good and they can train less and charge enough to turn a profit. Maybe then they can do a revshare with content creators. Maybe something like YouTube
    - dageshi 2y ago
      They'll have to figure it out because people aren't gonna write content just for openai to scrape it, the economics don't work.
meowkit 2y ago
“Fuck you, pay me” - Childish Gambino The whole thing needs a reframe. Ad driven business only works because its a race to the bottom. Now we are approaching the bottom, and its not gonna be as competitive. Throwback to the 90s when you paid for a search engine? If you can charge the user (the customer- NOT the product) and then pay bespoke data providers (of which publishers fall under) then the model makes more sense, and LLM providers are normal middlemen, not parasites. The shift is already underway imo - my age cohort (28 y/o) does not consume traditional publications directly. Its all through summarization like podcast interviews, youtube essays, social media (reddit) etc
- ianmcgowan 2y ago
  "Fuck you, pay me" - Ray Liotta in Goodfellas (1990) :-)
- mewpmewp2 2y ago
  I think something as important as accurate and quick search should be definitely something that people are willing to spend on. $20 / month for something like that seems absolutely a no brainer, and it should for everyone in my view.
  - plasticeagle 2y ago
    People already spent upwards of $50 a month for the internet itself, plus they probably pay monthly for one or more streaming services. They likely pay separately for mobile data too. Separate monthly fees for separate services is absolutely unsustainable already. The economic model to make the internet work has not yet been discovered, but $20 a month for a search engine is not it.
    - mewpmewp2 2y ago
      For me the ideal would be some form of single subscription - I'm fine with $100 / month, where whatever I use is proportionally tracked and the services I use are ad-free, orientated to bring me the content I absolutely want and nothing else. Depending on usage of all of those is how the $100 would be spread among them.
TeMPOraL 2y ago
> Traditional search is a mutually beneficial arrangement, but LLM search is parasitic. Traditional search is mutually beneficial... to search providers and publishers. At expense of the users. LLM search is becoming popular because it lets users, for however short time this will last, escape the fruits of the "mutually beneficial arrangement". If anything, that arrangement of publishers and providers became an actual parasite on society at large these days. Publishers, in particular, will keep whining about being cut off; I have zero sympathy - people reach for LLMs precisely because publishers have been publishing trash and poison, entirely intentionally, optimizing for the parasitic business model, and it got so bad that the major use of LLMs is wading through that sea of bullshit, so that we don't have to. The ad-driven business model of publishing has been a disaster for a society, and deserves to be burned down completely. (Unfortunately, LLMs will work only for a short while, they're very much vulnerable to capture by advertisers - which means also by those publishers who now theatrically whine.)
- jsheard 2y ago
  OK, but someone still has to publish the subset of good content that the LLMs slurp up and republish. LLMs still need fresh quality content from somewhere.
  - TeMPOraL 2y ago
    Not anymore. There's arguably more than enough data to form a base for strong LLMs; extra data is nice, but doesn't have to come in such quantity. (In fact, there's value in trying to filter excess crap out of existing training sets.)
    - jsheard 2y ago
      We're talking about LLM-driven search engines here, the assumption is that they will always need up-to-date information. A "strong LLM" can't give you to latest on the presidential election if its knowledge cut-off is in 2023, so these companies "solution" is to scrape today's New York Times and get the LLM to write a summary.
    - 2y ago

kylebenzle 2y ago

Yes, I also don't understand how LLM based compaines expect people to keep producing contect for them for free.

dageshi 2y ago
I think they're gonna have to pay. The way reddit limited access to their API and got google to pay for access. Some variation of that but on a wider scale.
- ileonichwiesz 2y ago
  But that breaks OpenAI’s (et al) entire business model. Those AI companies can barely afford to operate as it is, while they scrape the entire web for free. I don’t see how they could keep above water once every website starts paywalling their stuff.
  - 8n4vidtmkvmk 2y ago
    Is it the training or running costs that are putting them in debt? Presumably we'll eventually get to a point where the models are good and they can train less and charge enough to turn a profit. Maybe then they can do a revshare with content creators. Maybe something like YouTube
  - dageshi 2y ago
    They'll have to figure it out because people aren't gonna write content just for openai to scrape it, the economics don't work.

meowkit 2y ago

“Fuck you, pay me” - Childish Gambino The whole thing needs a reframe. Ad driven business only works because its a race to the bottom. Now we are approaching the bottom, and its not gonna be as competitive. Throwback to the 90s when you paid for a search engine? If you can charge the user (the customer- NOT the product) and then pay bespoke data providers (of which publishers fall under) then the model makes more sense, and LLM providers are normal middlemen, not parasites. The shift is already underway imo - my age cohort (28 y/o) does not consume traditional publications directly. Its all through summarization like podcast interviews, youtube essays, social media (reddit) etc

ianmcgowan 2y ago
"Fuck you, pay me" - Ray Liotta in Goodfellas (1990) :-)
mewpmewp2 2y ago
I think something as important as accurate and quick search should be definitely something that people are willing to spend on. $20 / month for something like that seems absolutely a no brainer, and it should for everyone in my view.
- plasticeagle 2y ago
  People already spent upwards of $50 a month for the internet itself, plus they probably pay monthly for one or more streaming services. They likely pay separately for mobile data too. Separate monthly fees for separate services is absolutely unsustainable already. The economic model to make the internet work has not yet been discovered, but $20 a month for a search engine is not it.
  - mewpmewp2 2y ago
    For me the ideal would be some form of single subscription - I'm fine with $100 / month, where whatever I use is proportionally tracked and the services I use are ad-free, orientated to bring me the content I absolutely want and nothing else. Depending on usage of all of those is how the $100 would be spread among them.

TeMPOraL 2y ago

> Traditional search is a mutually beneficial arrangement, but LLM search is parasitic. Traditional search is mutually beneficial... to search providers and publishers. At expense of the users. LLM search is becoming popular because it lets users, for however short time this will last, escape the fruits of the "mutually beneficial arrangement". If anything, that arrangement of publishers and providers became an actual parasite on society at large these days. Publishers, in particular, will keep whining about being cut off; I have zero sympathy - people reach for LLMs precisely because publishers have been publishing trash and poison, entirely intentionally, optimizing for the parasitic business model, and it got so bad that the major use of LLMs is wading through that sea of bullshit, so that we don't have to. The ad-driven business model of publishing has been a disaster for a society, and deserves to be burned down completely. (Unfortunately, LLMs will work only for a short while, they're very much vulnerable to capture by advertisers - which means also by those publishers who now theatrically whine.)

jsheard 2y ago
OK, but someone still has to publish the subset of good content that the LLMs slurp up and republish. LLMs still need fresh quality content from somewhere.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  Not anymore. There's arguably more than enough data to form a base for strong LLMs; extra data is nice, but doesn't have to come in such quantity. (In fact, there's value in trying to filter excess crap out of existing training sets.)
  - jsheard 2y ago
    We're talking about LLM-driven search engines here, the assumption is that they will always need up-to-date information. A "strong LLM" can't give you to latest on the presidential election if its knowledge cut-off is in 2023, so these companies "solution" is to scrape today's New York Times and get the LLM to write a summary.
  - 2y ago