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What decides critical or non-critical. One could argue that a game isn't critical but one could say it's critical to stop hackers. If you were to take the sta

What decides critical or non-critical. One could argue that a game isn't critical but one could say it's critical to stop hackers. If you were to take the stance that gaming isn't critical than with that logic you're then claiming multiplayer hacking is a feature of the game. Doesn't do well for the community or the company. But nor do the rootkits do good for the consumer.

throwaway48476 2y ago
Critical as in "my gpu is a paperweight without a driver".
- sgjohnson 2y ago
  GPU driver can technically be userland too. Look at what Apple has done in recent years. kexts (kernel-level drivers) are basically all but unsupported today, and both DriverKit and IOKit are fully userland.
  - throwaway48476 2y ago
    Performance critical drivers are always going to be kernel mode.
avery17 2y ago
It hasn't stopped hackers though.
- caiomassan 2y ago
  at least they need to search more than the first cheat option on google.
- lomase 2y ago
  To be fair it stopped hackers for a while. Many people said Valorant did not have cheaters. But nowdays the Valorant community complains about hackers almost as the CS community.
  - orwin 2y ago
    It's because nowadays cheats run on a secondary machine, often a Pi,so rootkits have less impacts.
Nadya 2y ago
If they worked to any acceptable level of efficacy then they could be tolerated. They're only tolerated by people who think they work as well as they claim to work (security theater) but anyone who knows about the performance impacts and/or are tech-savvy enough to understand it is a rootkit and potential exploit (that would fully pwn your device) hates them. Some cheats are getting rather sophisticated now. There's an ever-increasing number of Pi-devices where the cheating is done externally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpvwjC1_Luo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpvwjC1_Luo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=revk5r5vqxA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=revk5r5vqxA
- ThatPlayer 2y ago
  They're also chosen by users when the game is filled with cheater. Counterstrike 2 is an example of this with players moving to FaceIT and ESEA (with kernel anti cheat) as the higher ranks of official competitive matchmaking are filled with cheaters.
  - lomase 2y ago
    FaceIT works better than normal matchaking, but I am not sure is because is a Kernel level anticheat. FaceIT only sells one thing, matchmaking, so they have people manually reviewing games. A thing that Valve will never do.
- tadfisher 2y ago
  That's child's play. The vogue is PCIe devices that sniff draw calls, memory transfers and network activity on the bus.
- Thaxll 2y ago
  Performance impact is overblown, it was proven that the lost of perf is marginal when implemented properly.
  - Nadya 2y ago
    Proven by who and what proof? Because Denuvo is the only one outspoken about how it doesn't impact performance despite all evidence to the contrary and they provide no evidence of their own beyond claiming it doesnt. Then saying they'll prove it doesn't and then backing out of proving it. https://www.resetera.com/threads/irdeto-backtracks-on-plans-to-prove-denuvo-drm-doesnt-hurt-performance.1017801/ https://www.resetera.com/threads/irdeto-backtracks-on-plans-...
2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
> one could say it's critical to stop hackers. It's never critical to stop hackers in a videogame IMO. We need to stop being so damn serious about gaming.
- codebje 2y ago
  Rampant cheating will wreck competitive multiplayer games fast, so there are perspectives from which this critical. (I’d still lean towards expecting game houses to find another way, kernel drivers are still client side trust mechanisms).
  - heromal 2y ago
    I think the point is that competitive multiplayer games are not critical. Scripting in e.g. league of legends probably doesn't register on 99% of humanities "top 100 most critical things in my life" radar.
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
      That was my point. We forgot we were gaming, probably due to all the money being thrown around.
      - codebje 2y ago
        No-one likes playing with a cheat in Uno, either, and the table stakes for Uno are pretty low.
    - prerok 2y ago
      For some people it's no. 1 priority in life. What's your point?
    - codebje 2y ago
      The LoL game development studio probably rates their game being a commercial success as a significantly critical thing.
  - 2y ago

throwaway48476 2y ago

Critical as in "my gpu is a paperweight without a driver".

sgjohnson 2y ago
GPU driver can technically be userland too. Look at what Apple has done in recent years. kexts (kernel-level drivers) are basically all but unsupported today, and both DriverKit and IOKit are fully userland.
- throwaway48476 2y ago
  Performance critical drivers are always going to be kernel mode.

avery17 2y ago

It hasn't stopped hackers though.

caiomassan 2y ago
at least they need to search more than the first cheat option on google.
lomase 2y ago
To be fair it stopped hackers for a while. Many people said Valorant did not have cheaters. But nowdays the Valorant community complains about hackers almost as the CS community.
- orwin 2y ago
  It's because nowadays cheats run on a secondary machine, often a Pi,so rootkits have less impacts.

Nadya 2y ago

If they worked to any acceptable level of efficacy then they could be tolerated. They're only tolerated by people who think they work as well as they claim to work (security theater) but anyone who knows about the performance impacts and/or are tech-savvy enough to understand it is a rootkit and potential exploit (that would fully pwn your device) hates them. Some cheats are getting rather sophisticated now. There's an ever-increasing number of Pi-devices where the cheating is done externally. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpvwjC1_Luo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpvwjC1_Luo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=revk5r5vqxA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=revk5r5vqxA

ThatPlayer 2y ago
They're also chosen by users when the game is filled with cheater. Counterstrike 2 is an example of this with players moving to FaceIT and ESEA (with kernel anti cheat) as the higher ranks of official competitive matchmaking are filled with cheaters.
- lomase 2y ago
  FaceIT works better than normal matchaking, but I am not sure is because is a Kernel level anticheat. FaceIT only sells one thing, matchmaking, so they have people manually reviewing games. A thing that Valve will never do.
tadfisher 2y ago
That's child's play. The vogue is PCIe devices that sniff draw calls, memory transfers and network activity on the bus.
Thaxll 2y ago
Performance impact is overblown, it was proven that the lost of perf is marginal when implemented properly.
- Nadya 2y ago
  Proven by who and what proof? Because Denuvo is the only one outspoken about how it doesn't impact performance despite all evidence to the contrary and they provide no evidence of their own beyond claiming it doesnt. Then saying they'll prove it doesn't and then backing out of proving it. https://www.resetera.com/threads/irdeto-backtracks-on-plans-to-prove-denuvo-drm-doesnt-hurt-performance.1017801/ https://www.resetera.com/threads/irdeto-backtracks-on-plans-...

2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago

> one could say it's critical to stop hackers. It's never critical to stop hackers in a videogame IMO. We need to stop being so damn serious about gaming.

codebje 2y ago
Rampant cheating will wreck competitive multiplayer games fast, so there are perspectives from which this critical. (I’d still lean towards expecting game houses to find another way, kernel drivers are still client side trust mechanisms).
- heromal 2y ago
  I think the point is that competitive multiplayer games are not critical. Scripting in e.g. league of legends probably doesn't register on 99% of humanities "top 100 most critical things in my life" radar.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 2y ago
    That was my point. We forgot we were gaming, probably due to all the money being thrown around.
    - codebje 2y ago
      No-one likes playing with a cheat in Uno, either, and the table stakes for Uno are pretty low.
  - prerok 2y ago
    For some people it's no. 1 priority in life. What's your point?
  - codebje 2y ago
    The LoL game development studio probably rates their game being a commercial success as a significantly critical thing.
- 2y ago