7 ms·

BYD quarterly sales beat Tesla for first time

98 points by leto_ii 2y ago

leto_ii 2y ago
https://archive.ph/VtIMd https://archive.ph/VtIMd
- conductr 2y ago
  Somewhat related but FT being $75/month is a bit absurd IMO
  - tuatoru 2y ago
    It's the only newspaper with much of a connection to objective, fair, non-selective reportage. And it knows that. Your alternative is a Bloomberg terminal. How much are they, again?
  - tim333 2y ago
    Probably everyday folk bypass the paywall, so that's mostly paid by professionals who need it?
  - rldjbpin 2y ago
    my workplace provides paid access to its employees. seems equally absurd like oreilly.com access or research paper platforms that schools sometimes pay for. they bank on enterprise billing to keep the lights on.
Etheryte 2y ago
Only 7.9 percent of all of their sales is outside of China. They can generate fancy numbers galore on domestic soil where they have both production subsidies as well as government aid for buying said vehicles, but it's very unclear how they're going to fare outside of China.
- jaggs 2y ago
  Wow, really good that Tesla has received no government subsidies then. :) https://www.ft.com/content/8179bd8a-4d96-43a9-a8f9-074f9a275bd8 https://www.ft.com/content/8179bd8a-4d96-43a9-a8f9-074f9a275...
  - mtmail 2y ago
    Is Tesla mentioned in the FT.com article? I can't access it. On https://apnews.com/article/microchip-electric-vehicles-battery-semiconductor-states-subsidies-3ac5f11cdbf020e996f6bc8f92bd2bfd https://apnews.com/article/microchip-electric-vehicles-batte... Tesla is only mentioned by one state loosing a project. "Many of the companies drawing the biggest subsidy offers — such as Intel, Hyundai, Panasonic, Micron, Toyota, Ford and General Motors — are profitable and operate around the globe. Some lesser-known names in the nascent EV field are getting big offers too, such as Rivian, Volkswagen-backed Scout Motors and Vietnamese automaker VinFast."
    - jaggs 2y ago
      Over $2bn in state and federal subsidies - https://archive.is/g5Gnb https://archive.is/g5Gnb https://imgur.com/a/XYSSnTQ https://imgur.com/a/XYSSnTQ
      - kelnos 2y ago
        Do we have any insight into how much the Chinese government supports BYD? $2B seems like a pretty small number, to be honest. I would expect the number to be at least an order of magnitude (or two!) higher for BYD. At any rate, $2B is a drop in Tesla's bucket; their quarterly revenue is around $25B now. That $2B may have been given at a critical time in Tesla's development and growth, but today it would be 2% of their yearly revenue.
        hangonhn 2y ago
        From: https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-subsidies-fuel-export-onslaught https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-s... "BYD received a total of 37.1 billion yuan in tax rebates over the five-year period, nearly four times the 9.3 billion yuan it received in subsidies. Additionally, BYD has secured long-term bank loans at interest rates between 2.05% and 2.98%, lower than the one-year prime lending rate of 3.35%, according to the company filings. " So it sounds like it received 9.3 billion yuan or 1.3 billion USD but it also receives 4x as much in tax rebates.
daedrdev 2y ago
I think the wave of tariffs is showing that fundamentally cars are becoming low margin businesses with the rise of electric cars, which is good for consumers and bad for producers.
- ProfessorLayton 2y ago
  The issue with the tariff approach is that they generally apply to countries that actually have an auto industry, but not all countries have one. Countries without tariffs will enjoy lots of competition and cheap prices, while established automakers with tariff protections will be squeezed out. I don't see how it's possible to stop China, even if rich western countries band together.
  - kelnos 2y ago
    The problem is when it's not fair competition. Certainly Tesla has received government subsidies, but I expect their numbers to pale in comparison to whatever money the Chinese government has directly and indirectly poured into BYD. Flooding foreign markets with your heavily-subsidized cars in order to kill your competition is great for you, but not so great for competitors in the market of sale.
    - SiempreViernes 2y ago
      And under capitalism, why should I care for the competitors? That unprofitable companies die is what is supposed to drive efficiency! Why mourn the death of a rent seeker?
      - discreteevent 2y ago
        Unprofitable inefficient companies don't die if governments keep propping them up. What they are doing is not capitalism.
        SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
jmclnx 2y ago
I wonder how much Tesla's support of Trump is hurting his sales. Without going public on Trump, would his sales have increased more ? Right now seems most of his customers may be from people concerned about the environment and/or Climate Change. As time goes on, that will probably change. There is a reason heads and owners of Companies try and stay out of politics.
- zzbzq 2y ago
  He already sold his cars to all the silicon valley nerds by pretending to be all about simulation theory and whatever nerd podcasts were talking about for the 2010s. Now he's catered his image to the opposite to sell to people who didn't buy on the first marketing push. Musks public persona has always been a fiction of identarian marketing
- mrguyorama 2y ago
  Tesla just couldn't win the competition. Sure some people are avoiding Tesla because of Elon, but they only say that because there ARE other options. Those self same people often continue to use Twitter because they just cannot stand the FOMO of not being always online, despite it being Elon's personal echo chamber. Tesla did well initially because they dared to sell a normal car that happened to use electricity. Other automakers finally gave in and did the same. Why would I buy a car from Tesla, who has known QA issues and commands a weird premium price and hasn't "updated" their vehicles in a decade (though I don't personally get that complaint) when I could buy a Hyundai? Or a VW?
  - fastball 2y ago
    Half of all electric vehicles sold in the US are still Teslas, so I hardly think the competition has caught up.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
      > Half of all electric vehicles sold in the US are still Teslas * 48% And still falling. https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and-sales https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and... the competition for EVs is becoming every automaker you have ever heard of (1), as well as some you haven't. Any one of them maintaining high market share is ever harder. 1) With the exception of Toyota.
linkgoron 2y ago
I've been happily driving a BYD Atto 3 for ~6 months now. Very happy with it, its got a lot of nice software and hardware features, carplay/android auto works well, driving is nice and very smooth (especially on sport mode), and my daughter loves playing with the "strings" on the doors. The most glaring issue is the battery which is really its weakest part. Is it better than a Tesla? Probably not - there are clearly places in the software where I know that Teslas are more polished (e.g. the "360" parking view which IMO could be a bit better, although I feel like I'm parking in gta 2), and the acceleration won't blow your socks off. However, they're much cheaper and it's a good family car (for us) - definitely for the price.
- teruakohatu 2y ago
  > The most glaring issue is the battery which is really its weakest part. What are the issues? I thought BYD batteries were as good as they get? I am pretty sure Teslas sold in my country (NZ) have BYD batteries.
  - pclmulqdq 2y ago
    If OP is comparing their experience in your BYD to Tesla's marketing material, that's not a correct comparison. Tesla battery ranges should generally be derated quite a bit to align them with how the rest of the industry measures range.
    - jajko 2y ago
      And that goes only for rather flat terrain and non-cold environments. Otherwise the discrepancies end up just like consumption of ICE engines in ads vs reality.
    - adriancr 2y ago
      Perhaps subjective but in my own experience range on tesla is slightly more then what was rated.
  - adriancr 2y ago
    > What are the issues? I thought BYD batteries were as good as they get? BYD atto 3 that OP mentioned: - 420km wltp range on 60 kwh battery. Tesla model 3 rwd: - 554km wltp with 18" wheels - on 56kwh battery. so tesla is much more efficient while cost difference isnt that much at least in europe. (41k vs 39k)
kachurovskiy 2y ago
I really wanted to buy BYD in Germany this year but the car prices are 2x what they are in China - e.g. Seal is 45k EUR vs 25k USD with 3m delivery lag, no repair shops or spare parts on hand. Their software game is also quite lacking but I was ready to cut them some slack there due to their superior battery tech.
- FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
  Step 1: Enjoy a vacation in Shanghai. Step 2: Epic road trip. (Step 2b: If you can be entertaining, put it on YouTube and maybe make a little money?) Step 3: Be the proud owner of a BYD vehicle, back home in Germany. Was there a "pay exorbitant import tax" step I missed, that might ruin this clever strategem?
  - kachurovskiy 2y ago
    There's no issue delivering a car from China to Germany but it would have a different charging port, localization issues likely, registration problems imminent and 10% customs + 19% VAT + 17.4% BYD duty. https://www.reddit.com/r/BYD/comments/1f5jg4g/byd_in_europe_import_from_china_or_order_locally/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BYD/comments/1f5jg4g/byd_in_europe_... https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_3630 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_...
hevt 2y ago
This has been a long time coming. I don't agree with a few of the other commenters on the efficacy of tariffs, I think it will just punish US consumers while allowing Tesla to grow fat on state largesse.
- jajko 2y ago
  Well mr musk's election escapades don't look so stupid now, do they?
  - tonyedgecombe 2y ago
    Right now it looks like a coin toss. He could well end up worse off. I'm not sure he thinks these things through thoroughly enough.
Simulacra 2y ago
Given the opacity of the Chinese financial market, how can we validate this information?
churchill 2y ago
Watching American (and EU) industry leaders panic whenever China shows up never gets old: Western automakers had the chance to dominate international markets, but they stayed back at home, making overpriced cars for their captive audience of local buyers. Whenever competitors showed up, they laughed at them, before panicking when those upstarts starting challenging their market dominance. It happened with Japan, Korea, and now China. And in other industries, e.g., solar, nuclear power, etc. So, if you feel China competes unfairly, close off your markets. Countries without a local auto industry (large swathes of Asia, Latin America, the admittedly tiny African market) will accept Chinese EVs readily and it will give them time and experience to perfect their designs and business model. BYD & co. will then snatch American & EU automakers' foreign markets before they come home to swallow you alive by building factories in low-cost gateway countries like Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Mexico, & Brazil. Basically, the Toyota cycle will repeat itself because Western (esp. American) automakers spent hundreds of billions on share buybacks instead of R&D. PS: Wrote this as a reply to another comment, but I feel it needs to stand alone.
tim333 2y ago
Good on BYD. Go engineers! I've followed them since 2008 when Berkshire Hathaway took a stake. Here's the founder on why he still lives in a company flat with the other workers > 6:34 I'm just an ordinary engineer and due to work requirements I became the chairman of this company but after work we're all equal we live and talk together this is our culture. https://youtu.be/oBdDIuYcpGQ https://youtu.be/oBdDIuYcpGQ Although he's probably being modest. Charlie Munger thought he was like a new Edison (mentioned jokingly 3 mins in here with Charlie Warren and BillG https://youtu.be/rZ9AooeFe9E https://youtu.be/rZ9AooeFe9E) Tesla used to be cool when Musk was focused on engineering. It's a bit of a pity he's switched to prancing around on stage with Trump.

98 points by leto_ii 2y ago

leto_ii 2y ago

https://archive.ph/VtIMd https://archive.ph/VtIMd

conductr 2y ago
Somewhat related but FT being $75/month is a bit absurd IMO
- tuatoru 2y ago
  It's the only newspaper with much of a connection to objective, fair, non-selective reportage. And it knows that. Your alternative is a Bloomberg terminal. How much are they, again?
- tim333 2y ago
  Probably everyday folk bypass the paywall, so that's mostly paid by professionals who need it?
- rldjbpin 2y ago
  my workplace provides paid access to its employees. seems equally absurd like oreilly.com access or research paper platforms that schools sometimes pay for. they bank on enterprise billing to keep the lights on.

Etheryte 2y ago

Only 7.9 percent of all of their sales is outside of China. They can generate fancy numbers galore on domestic soil where they have both production subsidies as well as government aid for buying said vehicles, but it's very unclear how they're going to fare outside of China.

jaggs 2y ago
Wow, really good that Tesla has received no government subsidies then. :) https://www.ft.com/content/8179bd8a-4d96-43a9-a8f9-074f9a275bd8 https://www.ft.com/content/8179bd8a-4d96-43a9-a8f9-074f9a275...
- mtmail 2y ago
  Is Tesla mentioned in the FT.com article? I can't access it. On https://apnews.com/article/microchip-electric-vehicles-battery-semiconductor-states-subsidies-3ac5f11cdbf020e996f6bc8f92bd2bfd https://apnews.com/article/microchip-electric-vehicles-batte... Tesla is only mentioned by one state loosing a project. "Many of the companies drawing the biggest subsidy offers — such as Intel, Hyundai, Panasonic, Micron, Toyota, Ford and General Motors — are profitable and operate around the globe. Some lesser-known names in the nascent EV field are getting big offers too, such as Rivian, Volkswagen-backed Scout Motors and Vietnamese automaker VinFast."
  - jaggs 2y ago
    Over $2bn in state and federal subsidies - https://archive.is/g5Gnb https://archive.is/g5Gnb https://imgur.com/a/XYSSnTQ https://imgur.com/a/XYSSnTQ
    - kelnos 2y ago
      Do we have any insight into how much the Chinese government supports BYD? $2B seems like a pretty small number, to be honest. I would expect the number to be at least an order of magnitude (or two!) higher for BYD. At any rate, $2B is a drop in Tesla's bucket; their quarterly revenue is around $25B now. That $2B may have been given at a critical time in Tesla's development and growth, but today it would be 2% of their yearly revenue.
      - hangonhn 2y ago
        From: https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-subsidies-fuel-export-onslaught https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Datawatch/China-s-hidden-s... "BYD received a total of 37.1 billion yuan in tax rebates over the five-year period, nearly four times the 9.3 billion yuan it received in subsidies. Additionally, BYD has secured long-term bank loans at interest rates between 2.05% and 2.98%, lower than the one-year prime lending rate of 3.35%, according to the company filings. " So it sounds like it received 9.3 billion yuan or 1.3 billion USD but it also receives 4x as much in tax rebates.

daedrdev 2y ago

I think the wave of tariffs is showing that fundamentally cars are becoming low margin businesses with the rise of electric cars, which is good for consumers and bad for producers.

ProfessorLayton 2y ago
The issue with the tariff approach is that they generally apply to countries that actually have an auto industry, but not all countries have one. Countries without tariffs will enjoy lots of competition and cheap prices, while established automakers with tariff protections will be squeezed out. I don't see how it's possible to stop China, even if rich western countries band together.
- kelnos 2y ago
  The problem is when it's not fair competition. Certainly Tesla has received government subsidies, but I expect their numbers to pale in comparison to whatever money the Chinese government has directly and indirectly poured into BYD. Flooding foreign markets with your heavily-subsidized cars in order to kill your competition is great for you, but not so great for competitors in the market of sale.
  - SiempreViernes 2y ago
    And under capitalism, why should I care for the competitors? That unprofitable companies die is what is supposed to drive efficiency! Why mourn the death of a rent seeker?
    - discreteevent 2y ago
      Unprofitable inefficient companies don't die if governments keep propping them up. What they are doing is not capitalism.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago

jmclnx 2y ago

I wonder how much Tesla's support of Trump is hurting his sales. Without going public on Trump, would his sales have increased more ? Right now seems most of his customers may be from people concerned about the environment and/or Climate Change. As time goes on, that will probably change. There is a reason heads and owners of Companies try and stay out of politics.

zzbzq 2y ago
He already sold his cars to all the silicon valley nerds by pretending to be all about simulation theory and whatever nerd podcasts were talking about for the 2010s. Now he's catered his image to the opposite to sell to people who didn't buy on the first marketing push. Musks public persona has always been a fiction of identarian marketing
mrguyorama 2y ago
Tesla just couldn't win the competition. Sure some people are avoiding Tesla because of Elon, but they only say that because there ARE other options. Those self same people often continue to use Twitter because they just cannot stand the FOMO of not being always online, despite it being Elon's personal echo chamber. Tesla did well initially because they dared to sell a normal car that happened to use electricity. Other automakers finally gave in and did the same. Why would I buy a car from Tesla, who has known QA issues and commands a weird premium price and hasn't "updated" their vehicles in a decade (though I don't personally get that complaint) when I could buy a Hyundai? Or a VW?
- fastball 2y ago
  Half of all electric vehicles sold in the US are still Teslas, so I hardly think the competition has caught up.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 2y ago
    > Half of all electric vehicles sold in the US are still Teslas * 48% And still falling. https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and-sales https://caredge.com/guides/electric-vehicle-market-share-and... the competition for EVs is becoming every automaker you have ever heard of (1), as well as some you haven't. Any one of them maintaining high market share is ever harder. 1) With the exception of Toyota.

linkgoron 2y ago

I've been happily driving a BYD Atto 3 for ~6 months now. Very happy with it, its got a lot of nice software and hardware features, carplay/android auto works well, driving is nice and very smooth (especially on sport mode), and my daughter loves playing with the "strings" on the doors. The most glaring issue is the battery which is really its weakest part. Is it better than a Tesla? Probably not - there are clearly places in the software where I know that Teslas are more polished (e.g. the "360" parking view which IMO could be a bit better, although I feel like I'm parking in gta 2), and the acceleration won't blow your socks off. However, they're much cheaper and it's a good family car (for us) - definitely for the price.

teruakohatu 2y ago
> The most glaring issue is the battery which is really its weakest part. What are the issues? I thought BYD batteries were as good as they get? I am pretty sure Teslas sold in my country (NZ) have BYD batteries.
- pclmulqdq 2y ago
  If OP is comparing their experience in your BYD to Tesla's marketing material, that's not a correct comparison. Tesla battery ranges should generally be derated quite a bit to align them with how the rest of the industry measures range.
  - jajko 2y ago
    And that goes only for rather flat terrain and non-cold environments. Otherwise the discrepancies end up just like consumption of ICE engines in ads vs reality.
  - adriancr 2y ago
    Perhaps subjective but in my own experience range on tesla is slightly more then what was rated.
- adriancr 2y ago
  > What are the issues? I thought BYD batteries were as good as they get? BYD atto 3 that OP mentioned: - 420km wltp range on 60 kwh battery. Tesla model 3 rwd: - 554km wltp with 18" wheels - on 56kwh battery. so tesla is much more efficient while cost difference isnt that much at least in europe. (41k vs 39k)

kachurovskiy 2y ago

I really wanted to buy BYD in Germany this year but the car prices are 2x what they are in China - e.g. Seal is 45k EUR vs 25k USD with 3m delivery lag, no repair shops or spare parts on hand. Their software game is also quite lacking but I was ready to cut them some slack there due to their superior battery tech.

FooBarBizBazz 2y ago
Step 1: Enjoy a vacation in Shanghai. Step 2: Epic road trip. (Step 2b: If you can be entertaining, put it on YouTube and maybe make a little money?) Step 3: Be the proud owner of a BYD vehicle, back home in Germany. Was there a "pay exorbitant import tax" step I missed, that might ruin this clever strategem?
- kachurovskiy 2y ago
  There's no issue delivering a car from China to Germany but it would have a different charging port, localization issues likely, registration problems imminent and 10% customs + 19% VAT + 17.4% BYD duty. https://www.reddit.com/r/BYD/comments/1f5jg4g/byd_in_europe_import_from_china_or_order_locally/ https://www.reddit.com/r/BYD/comments/1f5jg4g/byd_in_europe_... https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_3630 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_...

hevt 2y ago

This has been a long time coming. I don't agree with a few of the other commenters on the efficacy of tariffs, I think it will just punish US consumers while allowing Tesla to grow fat on state largesse.

jajko 2y ago
Well mr musk's election escapades don't look so stupid now, do they?
- tonyedgecombe 2y ago
  Right now it looks like a coin toss. He could well end up worse off. I'm not sure he thinks these things through thoroughly enough.

Simulacra 2y ago

Given the opacity of the Chinese financial market, how can we validate this information?

churchill 2y ago

Watching American (and EU) industry leaders panic whenever China shows up never gets old: Western automakers had the chance to dominate international markets, but they stayed back at home, making overpriced cars for their captive audience of local buyers. Whenever competitors showed up, they laughed at them, before panicking when those upstarts starting challenging their market dominance. It happened with Japan, Korea, and now China. And in other industries, e.g., solar, nuclear power, etc. So, if you feel China competes unfairly, close off your markets. Countries without a local auto industry (large swathes of Asia, Latin America, the admittedly tiny African market) will accept Chinese EVs readily and it will give them time and experience to perfect their designs and business model. BYD & co. will then snatch American & EU automakers' foreign markets before they come home to swallow you alive by building factories in low-cost gateway countries like Bulgaria, Hungary, Romania, Mexico, & Brazil. Basically, the Toyota cycle will repeat itself because Western (esp. American) automakers spent hundreds of billions on share buybacks instead of R&D. PS: Wrote this as a reply to another comment, but I feel it needs to stand alone.

tim333 2y ago

Good on BYD. Go engineers! I've followed them since 2008 when Berkshire Hathaway took a stake. Here's the founder on why he still lives in a company flat with the other workers > 6:34 I'm just an ordinary engineer and due to work requirements I became the chairman of this company but after work we're all equal we live and talk together this is our culture. https://youtu.be/oBdDIuYcpGQ https://youtu.be/oBdDIuYcpGQ Although he's probably being modest. Charlie Munger thought he was like a new Edison (mentioned jokingly 3 mins in here with Charlie Warren and BillG https://youtu.be/rZ9AooeFe9E https://youtu.be/rZ9AooeFe9E) Tesla used to be cool when Musk was focused on engineering. It's a bit of a pity he's switched to prancing around on stage with Trump.