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Let's not forget that jaywalking was essentially created by the automotive industry and its lobbyists, to make life more convenient for drivers. It started in c

Let's not forget that jaywalking was essentially created by the automotive industry and its lobbyists, to make life more convenient for drivers. It started in car-heavy places like California, and eventually became a law virtually everywhere in the US, but was never really enforced in New York City, where most people walk or take public transit, rather than drive. If, like most New Yorkers, you walk several kilometers a day, through dozens of intersections, it's ludicrous to suggest that you should only walk at crosswalks, and only when the walk sign is lit. New Yorkers don't have a concept of "jaywalking"; it's just "walking."

nobody9999 2y ago
>New Yorkers don't have a concept of "jaywalking"; it's just "walking." As a general rule, I watch the cars and not the traffic lights. Mostly because many motorists (and NYC buses are the worst!) often don't pay attention to pedestrians, intersections or traffic lights. In fact, I'm more careful when walking through an intersection than in the middle of the street.
- throwaway984393 2y ago
  Yep. The times I've been hit by a car while walking it was the car rolling through stop signs, lights and turns.
- metabagel 2y ago
  Yes, crossing at intersections is much more complex, with traffic typically coming from many more directions than away from intersections.
  - wahern 2y ago
    And yet jaywalking accounts for the majority of pedestrian deaths, despite being a fraction of the number of crossings. Believe it or not, most drivers do look out for pedestrians. Some better than others, but another set of eyeballs is invaluable, especially from the actual car that risks hitting you. Unfortunately, drivers do not expect people to cross in the middle of the street. And they never will, generally speaking. People are constantly milling around on the sidewalk, standing on curbs, doing all manner of crazy things, but not actually crossing. From a driver's perspective, a pedestrian about to cross the street typically looks indistinguishable from a pedestrian just doing the normal insane stuff pedestrians do. Then in a split second they go from normal pedestrian to crossing pedestrian, which is often much too late for a driver to respond, assuming they even noticed, unless it's at an expected crossing. Yes, intersections feel dangerous and risky. But that's precisely why they're safer--pedestrians and drivers alike feel the anxiety, whereas when jaywalking both the pedestrian and car often don't sense any risk at all.
    - frmersdog 2y ago
      These deaths largely occur on high-speed roadways where people shouldn't be walking, or where the speed should be lower. The issue in both cases is a lack of public transit density. If you're in a dense area with a ton of pedestrians, the speed should be low enough that you CAN react, and there should be transit options that lower the number of car trips. In less dense areas, where automobile speeds are higher, auto and pedestrian traffic should be segregated; again, there should be other transit options that keep pedestrians away from spaces ripe for collisions. Essentially, build more rail/bus lanes/bike lanes and lower traffic speed. The problem isn't jaywalking and it never was.
      - bobthepanda 2y ago
        and the separation has to be realistic. if you have businesses and residences fronting onto opposite sides of a high speed road and the nearest legal crossing is a half mile away, that's not realistic. almost nobody will decide "hey let me add a whole mile of walking to my journey and a few minutes at a signal to cross safely."
      - wahern 2y ago
        I live in SF. We just had an accident the other day that indisputably can be pinned on jaywalking--late at night, cross where there was an actual fence, and the car hadn't been speeding. In fact, the limit is 25 there. Jaywalking figures prominently in pedestrian deaths in this city, and it's not simply because of speeding as there simply aren't that many streets where you can go that fast, and in fact in some of the worst areas (e.g. Tenderloin) you'll find the slowest speeds. Pedestrian deaths are also often elderly, as younger victims would have been more likely to survive at the speeds they were hit. Another major issue in this city, though, is visibility, what with all the tightly packed parallel parking, and streets (especially in the western half) just the perfectly wrong width for modern car A pillars. I would fully support shutting down dozens of streets that criss-cross the city to through traffic and dedicate them to biking and pedestrians. The bike lanes here (where people end up dying, regardless) piss me off to no end as much of time the city could have just given an entire street over to bikes a block away, rather than some of the most trafficked (by cars) thoroughfares, and everybody would be better off. But another odd thing about SF is that pedestrians simply don't look. In every other major city I've lived or visited, in the US and around the world, the vast majority of pedestrians look before crossing a street. I've lived in SF for nearly 20 years and I can't get over how people just cross the streets--wide streets, busy streets, blind corners, etc--without a care in the world. It doesn't make it any less tragic, but... it's just so fscking bizarre. And I don't mean to excuse their deaths. Cars should be more careful, and they're definitely not--I'm wary of letting my children cross streets alone here, and I get honked regularly for not gunning it the moment a pedestrian crosses the center line when crossing. At the same time I find it very difficult to get too worked up when people blithely step in front of dump trucks (accident two weeks ago where even the city said there was absolutely nothing the city could have done to improve that intersection--the person just walked in front of the truck against every precaution).
- jajko 2y ago
  Its just an assumption that all people on the roads are having 100% focus on whole surrounding situation, 100% of the time. If you drive a bit as the only parent in the car with 2+ small kids, you know that ain't true, and yes complex intersections are one of the worst places. Plus you have literal a-holes who ignore traffic rules on purpose, which in place where I live (Switzerland) is maybe 80% of the cyclists. I've had few near miss (5cm max) as a pedestrian where cyclist with red light zoomed through thick crowd crossing without even slowing down. Bear in mind that >=30kmh hit of pedestrian can easily end up in fatality or permanent disability, when wife worked on urgency in biggest hospital around here, there were some dead pedestrians from such collisions.
- bsimpson 2y ago
  New York is probably the only place in the US where most of the drivers did not learn to drive here. It's the most international city in the US, and a disproportionate number of people who use the roads (taxis, delivery drivers, etc) grew up in places that have a traffic system very different that the US's. People in New York routinely run red lights, roll through crosswalks, ride in the shoulder - things that you might encounter in other countries, but are generally considered disrespectful/dangerous in the US. When so many drivers grew up driving in places that tolerate those behaviors (either in their home countries or as native New Yorkers), it creates a road culture that's very different than you'd expect in other parts of America. In other cities, you can take a "trust but verify" approach to traffic. Drivers will respect traffic lights. Pedestrians will cross where they're meant to. People will (only) use the lanes painted on the road. You have to be alert in case an outlier does something differently, but we generally consider those people selfish exceptions. The written rules and the practiced culture deviate immensely in New York. You can't just operate by the rules and expect that everyone else will too.
  - nobody9999 2y ago
    >New York is probably the only place in the US where most of the drivers did not learn to drive here. Yep. They "learned" in Connecticut, New Jersey and Long Island. And that's really scary. As I mentioned, MTA bus drivers are the worst at this sort of thing. And they learned to drive (at least their buses) here in NYC. Got anything else you want to blame on immigrants? It seems to be trending behavior. And more's the pity.
    - wkat4242 2y ago
      > Got anything else you want to blame on immigrants? It seems to be trending behavior. And more's the pity. Also, getting a license in many countries is far more difficult than in the US. Where I'm from there aren't even learner permits. The only way to learn is to take lessons with a real instructor and the exam is really strict. Most people fail several times and spend thousands on getting it.
  - rascul 2y ago
asd33313131 2y ago
In Vienna, which has very good public transport and a large walking population, there is a strong culture against jaywalking. Locals will wait at the crosswalk sign even on minor roads with no traffic. Having lived in New York, London, and other places, I've never seen anything like it.
- mywittyname 2y ago
  I'm willing to bet drivers in Vienna also obey traffic signals/laws, which is also something you cannot expect from NYC drivers.
- lxgr 2y ago
  Not really. It’s common enough that not crossing at a red light as a pedestrian (with no cars in sight) can be a tell that you’re potentially German :)
- monocasa 2y ago
  I saw the same thing in not quite 'rural' Czechia, but definitely not Prague.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  I noticed that. But people are very regimental there. It's a bit strange though because the city doesn't even have that many cars and usually it's pretty safe to just look both ways.
- rurban 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - spacechild1 2y ago
    > The story goes to influence child education. If there are no children in sight some german will jaywalk though. That is definitely true. I'm from Austria and I try not to jaywalk when there are children around because I have been taught this way (and I see the point).
  - lancesells 2y ago
dathinab 2y ago
>New Yorkers don't have a concept of "jaywalking"; it's just "walking." It's also not a word in the German language at all, it's just "crossing the road". If you do it safely grate, if you don't not grate and if there are children nearby unsafe road crossing is really something you shouldn't do, especially it it's just because you are to lazy to walk a small bit more (I think crossing a road close by a pedestrian crossing while you aren't allowed to cross it is also the only way it is illegal outside of the case of "you action counting as endangering you or others" (like actually endangering not some absurd twisting of definitions)).
- arcanemachiner 2y ago
  Great
- elliottkember 2y ago
  Rotgänger Totgänger!
  - dathinab 2y ago
    it's a ad-hoc compound word not a official German word (not in Duden) it pretty much appears only in the given phrase and hardly anyone uses it but most importantly is that this phrase is about crossing the street on pedestrian crossing with traffic lights while they signal that you should wait a moment which indeed is frowned on in Germany, depending on region quite a lot but jaywalking also refers to you "just crossing the street" at a place where there is no pedestrian crossing. Which outside of Highways, limited-access roads and similar is quite normal. and sure if there is a pedestrian crossing just a few meter down the road it is frowned on if you don't use it
- 0dayz 2y ago
  Most likely because jaywalking was an insult before a legal word.
  - jawilson2 2y ago
    Like 75% of these kinds of phrases in American English, without looking it up I'm going to assume there is a racist etymology behind it.
zahlman 2y ago
>like most New Yorkers, you walk several kilometers a day I don't think I can take this claim for granted.
- wkat4242 2y ago
  I think so. I live in a fairly big city and it's the same here. Excellent public transport, not so many cars around. Walking to the subway station is already 600m. Inside the subway system one can walk a lot for connecting lines. Even if I did have a car it would be a few blocks away in some parking garage. It's not like we have car ports or driveways here.
- lolinder 2y ago
  3 km is only 1.9 miles, or just over half an hour of walking for most people. If you have a 0.95 mile commute you've already hit the several kilometers per day bar.
  - zahlman 2y ago
    I've found that people tend to look at me strange when I describe 3km as within walking distance.
    - lolinder 2y ago
      Do you live in NYC? Anecdotally, when I go out there for business events the locals invariably suggest walking if the distance is ~1 mile or less. Do that there and back and you've hit 3 km walked on a single event.
      - nobody9999 2y ago
        >Do you live in NYC? In Manhattan at least (this is different elsewhere in NYC), as a general rule, 20 city blocks (going from 44th Street to 45th Street is one city block) is approximately one mile. Three Avenue blocks (e.g., from Fifth to Sixth Avenues, etc.) is also approximately one mile. Walking ten blocks (~800 meters/~1/2 mile) to do just about anything is pretty normal, and walking further is pretty common too. If you note that's one-way, the round trip is ~1.6km and multiple jaunts daily aren't uncommon. While street lengths are different in other boroughs, depending on where you live, you may well walk several miles every day. Or you may not. Folks who live in the North Bronx, Staten Island, Eastern Queens or South/Southeastern Brooklyn may well use motorized vehicles for many purposes, as the layouts are more similar to US suburbs than other places in NYC. YMMV (pun intended). Edit: Fixed prose.
speleding 2y ago
Amsterdam is just like New York (New Amsterdam!) in that pedestrians (and bikes) cross wherever they like. Next up: in Amsterdam most bikes and pedestrians will not wait for a red light on small crossings when they can see there is no oncoming traffic. Technically illegal but I've never heard of anyone being fined. No harm no foul. But I guess the large intersections in New York make it trickier to estimate whether that's safe to do.
- Raidion 2y ago
  Laws that allow cyclists to treat stop signs and red lights as yield signs are called "Idaho stop" laws and are debated fiercely.
  - pridkett 2y ago
    Unfortunately, New York seems to be odd in this respect. Even at lightly used stop lights, such as the lights inside of Central Park when most vehicles can’t use the roads, the police have been known to ticket cyclists. Then again, I’ve also seen the police ticket cyclists for speeding in the park. Numerous Reddit threads for both topics.
    - reliabilityguy 2y ago
      Typically those crosswalks in Central Park have a lot of pedestrians. So, makes sense.
    - sheepscreek 2y ago
      I guess jaywalking laws have been used as bandaid for what is the real problem - a complete disregard for pedestrians and cyclists on the road in big North American cities. But instead of putting more onus on the motorists, they’ve offloaded it to the former. I guess you could say the bias extends to the lawmakers. Almost feels like victim shaming, if you ask me. But the fact is, jaywalking is against the law and when people don’t follow the rules, it just adds to the confusion which can cause more accidents. Just makes one wonder - what’s the point of it?
    - 2y ago
atkailash 2y ago
[dead]
pjmlp 2y ago
To join the voice to the other non-US folks, in the Southern Europe no one cares, we just cross the road regardless the colour. Usually it is only respected in high traffic roads, unless one wants to play frogger in real life. And while there are technically fines, like 10 €, in practice the police has more usefull things to worry about and unless you get an officer having a bad day and someone has to pay for it, they won't care.

nobody9999 2y ago

>New Yorkers don't have a concept of "jaywalking"; it's just "walking." As a general rule, I watch the cars and not the traffic lights. Mostly because many motorists (and NYC buses are the worst!) often don't pay attention to pedestrians, intersections or traffic lights. In fact, I'm more careful when walking through an intersection than in the middle of the street.

throwaway984393 2y ago
Yep. The times I've been hit by a car while walking it was the car rolling through stop signs, lights and turns.
metabagel 2y ago
Yes, crossing at intersections is much more complex, with traffic typically coming from many more directions than away from intersections.
- wahern 2y ago
  And yet jaywalking accounts for the majority of pedestrian deaths, despite being a fraction of the number of crossings. Believe it or not, most drivers do look out for pedestrians. Some better than others, but another set of eyeballs is invaluable, especially from the actual car that risks hitting you. Unfortunately, drivers do not expect people to cross in the middle of the street. And they never will, generally speaking. People are constantly milling around on the sidewalk, standing on curbs, doing all manner of crazy things, but not actually crossing. From a driver's perspective, a pedestrian about to cross the street typically looks indistinguishable from a pedestrian just doing the normal insane stuff pedestrians do. Then in a split second they go from normal pedestrian to crossing pedestrian, which is often much too late for a driver to respond, assuming they even noticed, unless it's at an expected crossing. Yes, intersections feel dangerous and risky. But that's precisely why they're safer--pedestrians and drivers alike feel the anxiety, whereas when jaywalking both the pedestrian and car often don't sense any risk at all.
  - frmersdog 2y ago
    These deaths largely occur on high-speed roadways where people shouldn't be walking, or where the speed should be lower. The issue in both cases is a lack of public transit density. If you're in a dense area with a ton of pedestrians, the speed should be low enough that you CAN react, and there should be transit options that lower the number of car trips. In less dense areas, where automobile speeds are higher, auto and pedestrian traffic should be segregated; again, there should be other transit options that keep pedestrians away from spaces ripe for collisions. Essentially, build more rail/bus lanes/bike lanes and lower traffic speed. The problem isn't jaywalking and it never was.
    - bobthepanda 2y ago
      and the separation has to be realistic. if you have businesses and residences fronting onto opposite sides of a high speed road and the nearest legal crossing is a half mile away, that's not realistic. almost nobody will decide "hey let me add a whole mile of walking to my journey and a few minutes at a signal to cross safely."
    - wahern 2y ago
      I live in SF. We just had an accident the other day that indisputably can be pinned on jaywalking--late at night, cross where there was an actual fence, and the car hadn't been speeding. In fact, the limit is 25 there. Jaywalking figures prominently in pedestrian deaths in this city, and it's not simply because of speeding as there simply aren't that many streets where you can go that fast, and in fact in some of the worst areas (e.g. Tenderloin) you'll find the slowest speeds. Pedestrian deaths are also often elderly, as younger victims would have been more likely to survive at the speeds they were hit. Another major issue in this city, though, is visibility, what with all the tightly packed parallel parking, and streets (especially in the western half) just the perfectly wrong width for modern car A pillars. I would fully support shutting down dozens of streets that criss-cross the city to through traffic and dedicate them to biking and pedestrians. The bike lanes here (where people end up dying, regardless) piss me off to no end as much of time the city could have just given an entire street over to bikes a block away, rather than some of the most trafficked (by cars) thoroughfares, and everybody would be better off. But another odd thing about SF is that pedestrians simply don't look. In every other major city I've lived or visited, in the US and around the world, the vast majority of pedestrians look before crossing a street. I've lived in SF for nearly 20 years and I can't get over how people just cross the streets--wide streets, busy streets, blind corners, etc--without a care in the world. It doesn't make it any less tragic, but... it's just so fscking bizarre. And I don't mean to excuse their deaths. Cars should be more careful, and they're definitely not--I'm wary of letting my children cross streets alone here, and I get honked regularly for not gunning it the moment a pedestrian crosses the center line when crossing. At the same time I find it very difficult to get too worked up when people blithely step in front of dump trucks (accident two weeks ago where even the city said there was absolutely nothing the city could have done to improve that intersection--the person just walked in front of the truck against every precaution).
jajko 2y ago
Its just an assumption that all people on the roads are having 100% focus on whole surrounding situation, 100% of the time. If you drive a bit as the only parent in the car with 2+ small kids, you know that ain't true, and yes complex intersections are one of the worst places. Plus you have literal a-holes who ignore traffic rules on purpose, which in place where I live (Switzerland) is maybe 80% of the cyclists. I've had few near miss (5cm max) as a pedestrian where cyclist with red light zoomed through thick crowd crossing without even slowing down. Bear in mind that >=30kmh hit of pedestrian can easily end up in fatality or permanent disability, when wife worked on urgency in biggest hospital around here, there were some dead pedestrians from such collisions.
bsimpson 2y ago
New York is probably the only place in the US where most of the drivers did not learn to drive here. It's the most international city in the US, and a disproportionate number of people who use the roads (taxis, delivery drivers, etc) grew up in places that have a traffic system very different that the US's. People in New York routinely run red lights, roll through crosswalks, ride in the shoulder - things that you might encounter in other countries, but are generally considered disrespectful/dangerous in the US. When so many drivers grew up driving in places that tolerate those behaviors (either in their home countries or as native New Yorkers), it creates a road culture that's very different than you'd expect in other parts of America. In other cities, you can take a "trust but verify" approach to traffic. Drivers will respect traffic lights. Pedestrians will cross where they're meant to. People will (only) use the lanes painted on the road. You have to be alert in case an outlier does something differently, but we generally consider those people selfish exceptions. The written rules and the practiced culture deviate immensely in New York. You can't just operate by the rules and expect that everyone else will too.
- nobody9999 2y ago
  >New York is probably the only place in the US where most of the drivers did not learn to drive here. Yep. They "learned" in Connecticut, New Jersey and Long Island. And that's really scary. As I mentioned, MTA bus drivers are the worst at this sort of thing. And they learned to drive (at least their buses) here in NYC. Got anything else you want to blame on immigrants? It seems to be trending behavior. And more's the pity.
  - wkat4242 2y ago
    > Got anything else you want to blame on immigrants? It seems to be trending behavior. And more's the pity. Also, getting a license in many countries is far more difficult than in the US. Where I'm from there aren't even learner permits. The only way to learn is to take lessons with a real instructor and the exam is really strict. Most people fail several times and spend thousands on getting it.
- rascul 2y ago

asd33313131 2y ago

In Vienna, which has very good public transport and a large walking population, there is a strong culture against jaywalking. Locals will wait at the crosswalk sign even on minor roads with no traffic. Having lived in New York, London, and other places, I've never seen anything like it.

mywittyname 2y ago
I'm willing to bet drivers in Vienna also obey traffic signals/laws, which is also something you cannot expect from NYC drivers.
lxgr 2y ago
Not really. It’s common enough that not crossing at a red light as a pedestrian (with no cars in sight) can be a tell that you’re potentially German :)
monocasa 2y ago
I saw the same thing in not quite 'rural' Czechia, but definitely not Prague.
wkat4242 2y ago
I noticed that. But people are very regimental there. It's a bit strange though because the city doesn't even have that many cars and usually it's pretty safe to just look both ways.
rurban 2y ago
[flagged]
- spacechild1 2y ago
  > The story goes to influence child education. If there are no children in sight some german will jaywalk though. That is definitely true. I'm from Austria and I try not to jaywalk when there are children around because I have been taught this way (and I see the point).
- lancesells 2y ago

dathinab 2y ago

>New Yorkers don't have a concept of "jaywalking"; it's just "walking." It's also not a word in the German language at all, it's just "crossing the road". If you do it safely grate, if you don't not grate and if there are children nearby unsafe road crossing is really something you shouldn't do, especially it it's just because you are to lazy to walk a small bit more (I think crossing a road close by a pedestrian crossing while you aren't allowed to cross it is also the only way it is illegal outside of the case of "you action counting as endangering you or others" (like actually endangering not some absurd twisting of definitions)).

arcanemachiner 2y ago
Great
elliottkember 2y ago
Rotgänger Totgänger!
- dathinab 2y ago
  it's a ad-hoc compound word not a official German word (not in Duden) it pretty much appears only in the given phrase and hardly anyone uses it but most importantly is that this phrase is about crossing the street on pedestrian crossing with traffic lights while they signal that you should wait a moment which indeed is frowned on in Germany, depending on region quite a lot but jaywalking also refers to you "just crossing the street" at a place where there is no pedestrian crossing. Which outside of Highways, limited-access roads and similar is quite normal. and sure if there is a pedestrian crossing just a few meter down the road it is frowned on if you don't use it
0dayz 2y ago
Most likely because jaywalking was an insult before a legal word.
- jawilson2 2y ago
  Like 75% of these kinds of phrases in American English, without looking it up I'm going to assume there is a racist etymology behind it.

zahlman 2y ago

>like most New Yorkers, you walk several kilometers a day I don't think I can take this claim for granted.

wkat4242 2y ago
I think so. I live in a fairly big city and it's the same here. Excellent public transport, not so many cars around. Walking to the subway station is already 600m. Inside the subway system one can walk a lot for connecting lines. Even if I did have a car it would be a few blocks away in some parking garage. It's not like we have car ports or driveways here.
lolinder 2y ago
3 km is only 1.9 miles, or just over half an hour of walking for most people. If you have a 0.95 mile commute you've already hit the several kilometers per day bar.
- zahlman 2y ago
  I've found that people tend to look at me strange when I describe 3km as within walking distance.
  - lolinder 2y ago
    Do you live in NYC? Anecdotally, when I go out there for business events the locals invariably suggest walking if the distance is ~1 mile or less. Do that there and back and you've hit 3 km walked on a single event.
    - nobody9999 2y ago
      >Do you live in NYC? In Manhattan at least (this is different elsewhere in NYC), as a general rule, 20 city blocks (going from 44th Street to 45th Street is one city block) is approximately one mile. Three Avenue blocks (e.g., from Fifth to Sixth Avenues, etc.) is also approximately one mile. Walking ten blocks (~800 meters/~1/2 mile) to do just about anything is pretty normal, and walking further is pretty common too. If you note that's one-way, the round trip is ~1.6km and multiple jaunts daily aren't uncommon. While street lengths are different in other boroughs, depending on where you live, you may well walk several miles every day. Or you may not. Folks who live in the North Bronx, Staten Island, Eastern Queens or South/Southeastern Brooklyn may well use motorized vehicles for many purposes, as the layouts are more similar to US suburbs than other places in NYC. YMMV (pun intended). Edit: Fixed prose.

speleding 2y ago

Amsterdam is just like New York (New Amsterdam!) in that pedestrians (and bikes) cross wherever they like. Next up: in Amsterdam most bikes and pedestrians will not wait for a red light on small crossings when they can see there is no oncoming traffic. Technically illegal but I've never heard of anyone being fined. No harm no foul. But I guess the large intersections in New York make it trickier to estimate whether that's safe to do.

Raidion 2y ago
Laws that allow cyclists to treat stop signs and red lights as yield signs are called "Idaho stop" laws and are debated fiercely.
- pridkett 2y ago
  Unfortunately, New York seems to be odd in this respect. Even at lightly used stop lights, such as the lights inside of Central Park when most vehicles can’t use the roads, the police have been known to ticket cyclists. Then again, I’ve also seen the police ticket cyclists for speeding in the park. Numerous Reddit threads for both topics.
  - reliabilityguy 2y ago
    Typically those crosswalks in Central Park have a lot of pedestrians. So, makes sense.
  - sheepscreek 2y ago
    I guess jaywalking laws have been used as bandaid for what is the real problem - a complete disregard for pedestrians and cyclists on the road in big North American cities. But instead of putting more onus on the motorists, they’ve offloaded it to the former. I guess you could say the bias extends to the lawmakers. Almost feels like victim shaming, if you ask me. But the fact is, jaywalking is against the law and when people don’t follow the rules, it just adds to the confusion which can cause more accidents. Just makes one wonder - what’s the point of it?
  - 2y ago

atkailash 2y ago

[dead]

pjmlp 2y ago

To join the voice to the other non-US folks, in the Southern Europe no one cares, we just cross the road regardless the colour. Usually it is only respected in high traffic roads, unless one wants to play frogger in real life. And while there are technically fines, like 10 €, in practice the police has more usefull things to worry about and unless you get an officer having a bad day and someone has to pay for it, they won't care.