4 ms·

That is what we pay managers -to figure out- for. They should find out which and how by knowing the team, familiarity with domain knowledge, understanding compa

by ozim 2y ago

That is what we pay managers -to figure out- for. They should find out which and how by knowing the team, familiarity with domain knowledge, understanding company dynamics, understanding customer, understanding market dynamics.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago
That's basically a non-answer. Measuring "productivity" is a well known hard problem, and managers haven't really figured it out...
- yorwba 2y ago
  Economists are generally fine with defining productivity as the ratio of aggregate outputs to aggregate inputs. Measuring it is not the hard part. The hard part is doing anything about it. If you can't attribute specific outputs to specific inputs, you don't know how to change inputs to maximize outputs. That's what managers need to do, but of course they're often just guessing.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    Measuring human productivity is hard since we can't quantify output beyond silly metrics like lines of code written or amount of time speaking during meetings. Maybe if we were hunter/gatherers we could measure it by amount of animals killed.
    - yorwba 2y ago
      That's why upthread we have https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41992562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41992562 "You can [accurately and meaningfully measure software engineering productivity] - but not on the level of a single developer and you cannot use those measures to manage productivity of a specific dev." At the level of a company like Google, it's easy: both inputs and outputs are measured in terms of money.
      - ozim 2y ago
        As you point back to my comment. I am not Amazon person - but from my experience 2 pizza teams was what worked and I never implemented it myself just what I observed in wild. Measuring Google in terms of money is also flawed, there is loads of BS hidden there and lots of people paying big companies more just because they are big companies.
    - ozim 2y ago
      Well I pretty much see which team members are slacking and which are working hard. But I do code myself, I write requirements so I do know which ones are trivial and which ones are not. I also see when there are complex migrations. If you work in a group of people you will also get feedback - doesn't have to be snitching but still you get the feel who is a slacker in the group. It is hard to quantify the output if you want to be removed from the group "give me a number" manager. If you actually do the work of a manager so you get the feel of the group like who is "Hermione Granger" nagging that others are slacking and disregard their opinion, you see who is the "silent doer" or you see who is "we should do it properly" bullshitter you can make a lot of meaningful adjustments.
    - js8 2y ago
      > Maybe if we were hunter/gatherers we could measure it by amount of animals killed. So that's how animal husbandry came about!
    - rightbyte 2y ago
      > Maybe if we were hunter/gatherers we could measure it by amount of animals killed. Even that would be hard since hunting is complex. If you are the one chasing the pray into the arms of someone else, you surely want it to be considered a team effort. You need like 'blueberries picked'.
- mdorazio 2y ago
  It's not a non-answer. Good managers need to figure out what metrics make sense for the team they are managing, and that will change depending on the company and team. It might be new features, bug fixes, new product launch milestones, customer satisfaction, ad revenue, or any of a hundred other things.
  - randomNumber7 2y ago
    I heard lines of code is a hot one.
  - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
    I would want a specific example in that case rather than "the good managers figure it out" because in my experience, the bad managers pretend to figure it out while the good managers admit that they can't figure it out. Worse still, if you tell your reports what those metrics are, they will optimize them to death, potentially tanking the product (I can increase my bug fix count if there are more bugs to fix...).
    - ozim 2y ago
      So for a specific example I would have to outline 1-2 years of history of a team and product as a starter. Then I would have to go on outlining 6-12 months of trying stuff out. Because if I just give "an example" I will get dozens of "smart ass" replies how this specific one did not work for them and I am stupid. Thanks but don't have time for that or for writing an essay that no one will read anyway and call me stupid or demand even more explanation. :)
      - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
        I get it, you are a true believer. I just disagree with your belief, and the fact that you can't bring credible examples to the table just reinforces that disagreement in my mind.
      - hshshshshsh 2y ago
        The thing is even bad managers can thrive in a company with a large userbase like Google. There is a lot of momentum built into product and engineering.
hshshshshsh 2y ago
That sounds like a micro manager. I would imagine good engineers can figure out something for themselves.
- ChoHag 2y ago
  [dead]
beefnugs 2y ago
haha that is not what managers do. Managers follow their KPIs exactly. If their KPIs say they get payed a bonus if profit goes up, then manager does smart number stuff and sees "if we fire 15% of employees this year, my pay goes up 63%" and then that happens

by ozim 2y ago

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

That's basically a non-answer. Measuring "productivity" is a well known hard problem, and managers haven't really figured it out...

yorwba 2y ago
Economists are generally fine with defining productivity as the ratio of aggregate outputs to aggregate inputs. Measuring it is not the hard part. The hard part is doing anything about it. If you can't attribute specific outputs to specific inputs, you don't know how to change inputs to maximize outputs. That's what managers need to do, but of course they're often just guessing.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  Measuring human productivity is hard since we can't quantify output beyond silly metrics like lines of code written or amount of time speaking during meetings. Maybe if we were hunter/gatherers we could measure it by amount of animals killed.
  - yorwba 2y ago
    That's why upthread we have https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41992562 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41992562 "You can [accurately and meaningfully measure software engineering productivity] - but not on the level of a single developer and you cannot use those measures to manage productivity of a specific dev." At the level of a company like Google, it's easy: both inputs and outputs are measured in terms of money.
    - ozim 2y ago
      As you point back to my comment. I am not Amazon person - but from my experience 2 pizza teams was what worked and I never implemented it myself just what I observed in wild. Measuring Google in terms of money is also flawed, there is loads of BS hidden there and lots of people paying big companies more just because they are big companies.
  - ozim 2y ago
    Well I pretty much see which team members are slacking and which are working hard. But I do code myself, I write requirements so I do know which ones are trivial and which ones are not. I also see when there are complex migrations. If you work in a group of people you will also get feedback - doesn't have to be snitching but still you get the feel who is a slacker in the group. It is hard to quantify the output if you want to be removed from the group "give me a number" manager. If you actually do the work of a manager so you get the feel of the group like who is "Hermione Granger" nagging that others are slacking and disregard their opinion, you see who is the "silent doer" or you see who is "we should do it properly" bullshitter you can make a lot of meaningful adjustments.
  - js8 2y ago
    > Maybe if we were hunter/gatherers we could measure it by amount of animals killed. So that's how animal husbandry came about!
  - rightbyte 2y ago
    > Maybe if we were hunter/gatherers we could measure it by amount of animals killed. Even that would be hard since hunting is complex. If you are the one chasing the pray into the arms of someone else, you surely want it to be considered a team effort. You need like 'blueberries picked'.
mdorazio 2y ago
It's not a non-answer. Good managers need to figure out what metrics make sense for the team they are managing, and that will change depending on the company and team. It might be new features, bug fixes, new product launch milestones, customer satisfaction, ad revenue, or any of a hundred other things.
- randomNumber7 2y ago
  I heard lines of code is a hot one.
- seanmcdirmid 2y ago
  I would want a specific example in that case rather than "the good managers figure it out" because in my experience, the bad managers pretend to figure it out while the good managers admit that they can't figure it out. Worse still, if you tell your reports what those metrics are, they will optimize them to death, potentially tanking the product (I can increase my bug fix count if there are more bugs to fix...).
  - ozim 2y ago
    So for a specific example I would have to outline 1-2 years of history of a team and product as a starter. Then I would have to go on outlining 6-12 months of trying stuff out. Because if I just give "an example" I will get dozens of "smart ass" replies how this specific one did not work for them and I am stupid. Thanks but don't have time for that or for writing an essay that no one will read anyway and call me stupid or demand even more explanation. :)
    - seanmcdirmid 2y ago
      I get it, you are a true believer. I just disagree with your belief, and the fact that you can't bring credible examples to the table just reinforces that disagreement in my mind.
    - hshshshshsh 2y ago
      The thing is even bad managers can thrive in a company with a large userbase like Google. There is a lot of momentum built into product and engineering.

hshshshshsh 2y ago

That sounds like a micro manager. I would imagine good engineers can figure out something for themselves.

ChoHag 2y ago
[dead]

beefnugs 2y ago

haha that is not what managers do. Managers follow their KPIs exactly. If their KPIs say they get payed a bonus if profit goes up, then manager does smart number stuff and sees "if we fire 15% of employees this year, my pay goes up 63%" and then that happens