9 ms·

Everyone, chill Regardless of how you feel about tipping culture we're not talking about the average person nor are we talking about the average experience.

Everyone, chill Regardless of how you feel about tipping culture we're not talking about the average person nor are we talking about the average *experience*. The dude is worth north of $100bn, and is making nearly $10k per minute![0]. Someone who cannot spend his wealth. Someone who'd have to spend tens of millions of dollars every single day just to stop his wealth from growing. Someone who makes money faster than he can throw hundred dollar bills handfuls at a time. We're not talking about anything normal here because no one here *literally* makes thousands of dollars in the time it takes to wipe their ass. You can become poor, he would need an act of god to do so. We can have a conversation about tipping and how much everyone hates it, but to ignore the fact that we're talking about someone with this kind of money is... ludicrous[1]. Throwing down a hundred bucks means literally nothing to the man. It is not even what a penny is worth to most of you. He's not you and framing the discussion this way is obtuse. Rage on tipping, I don't give a fuck and I'll probably join you. He's not "sticking it to the man" or "standing up for his values" he *is*" the man. He's playing an important role in creating this machine you're raging against. I just don't understand any of you [0] 1e11*0.05/365/24/60 | | | | |_ minute | | | |____ hour | | |________ day | |_____________ Conservative 5% yearly return |_________________ At least 25bn less than he is worth... [1] FWIW, I hate tipping too. Fuck the till based tips with the ever increasing percentages. I frequently click 0. But fuck it man, I'm a grad student. Still, if I'm a regular somewhere and they are giving me special service, I'm gonna throw a few dollars into the tip jar. Tipping culture or not they're going out of their way for me and I should show gratitude in some way (you can also do by other means)

keyle 2y ago
"Everyone, chill" then proceeds to drop emphasis, F words and other strong words. Maybe take a page of your own book.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- HaZeust 2y ago
  The substance of his comment is still well-intentioned though. I agree with him.
  - RandomThoughts3 2y ago
    Random person writes completely unsourced negative comment about someone HN dislikes for no reason. HN cheers before launching in a pointless and already rehashed a thousands times discussion about tipping culture. I don’t know if it’s well intentioned but it’s peak HN.
- godelski 2y ago
  Chill because you all are giving me anxiety that I don't need. Idk how to tell you this, but this is a pretty common pattern for human speech. You see it in plenty of countries, plenty of cultures. Welcome to Earth. Words mean more than the literal dictionary interpretation of them. Edit: I only have sass in me tonight.
  - cinntaile 2y ago
    The workweek just started, you gotta save some sass for the rest of the week too.
    - godelski 2y ago
      I'm a grad student and ABD (all but dissertation). My work week has no beginning nor end. But don't worry, I still got plenty in me.
- pinkmuffinere 2y ago
  I read “everyone chill” to mean “there’s a lot of bad takes here”, not literally “remain calm”. In that context, I think the comment makes sense — they’re illustrating just how wrong the common take is
  - paulddraper 2y ago
    I've literally never heard that expression before
    - mrmlz 2y ago
      Someone learns something new everyday!
    - bravetraveler 2y ago
      I have, now what do we do? Which of us controls the language?
      - pinkmuffinere 2y ago
        Rock paper scissors for it
        bravetraveler 2y ago
        I really don't like this medium for it, when/where? :)
      - paulddraper 2y ago
        Whoever is able to use it to communicate ideas.
        bravetraveler 2y ago
        Alas, we are no further. Remember how we got here: you opened with what barely qualifies as an anecdote. Not remotely an idea. I'm trying to be fair. How about we go with the rock-paper-scissors suggestion?
ryandv 2y ago
This is eye-opening. I make a fraction of what Steve does and am still dumb enough to be hitting 20% at the machine every time I go out. If 0% is good enough for Mr. Ballmer, it's good enough for me.
- ethbr1 2y ago
  There's a difference between being frugal and being an asshole. If you have enough money that tips are a rounding error for you -- not tipping just makes you an asshole.
  - 71bw 2y ago
    It's none of your business to ever tip anywhere UNLESS you explicitly want to thank somebody for their service. How hard is that to understand? It is the workplace's responsibility to pay their staff adequately. NOT YOURS. 0% tip all the way everywhere. No matter if I have $10 or $10k on the bill.
    - YawningAngel 2y ago
      There are lots of instances in which it is in fact your responsibility to pay the staff and if you choose to ignore that fact and stiff them that's on you
      - highwaylights 2y ago
        I do tip, but is this perspective really helping the people that live off their tips? You don’t feel the need to tip the people stacking shelves at Walmart or the Amazon driver. In almost any other job we reasonably expect that someone’s compensation is between them and their employer and that the state should be making sure they’re protected from exploitatively low income. Why are waiting staff a special case? People have worse jobs that come without tips and it doesn’t seem to bother anybody. Those tips are expected now and irrelevant to service so it’s also just helping employers get away with paying those staff members less, so it’s really just subsidizing restaurants and cafes at this point.
roenxi 2y ago
> Still, if I'm a regular somewhere and they are giving me special service, I'm gonna throw a few dollars into the tip jar. There are some philosophical problems there. The business/servers can't renegotiate the menu like that - if they aren't getting paid for a service and the customer didn't ask for it then there is no reason they should get more money for it. Also, an observation about how the economics of regulars work - if you are a regular the business is probably already making a lot of money off you. Someone who goes back even a single time earns them 2x as much as a one-time walk in. Being a regular is already a favour to a business even if all you do is order something cheap off the menu. In my experience, when a business identifies that I am a regular they try to make me pay less to keep me coming back.
- antaviana 2y ago
  Actually, there is a restaurant where I go sometimes that when I pay cash instead of with a credit card, the owner gets so elated that rounds down the amount to pay in some 3-7%. The countertip I guess.
  - ryandv 2y ago
    Restaurants and bars especially in my city love tax evasion - that's why they are so enthusiastic about cash payments.
    - jajko 2y ago
      Yes thats normally the main drive, cash is usually just annoyance and additional risk to business. I wouldnt be too harsh judging that business though, quite a few restaurants are barely cutting it so this may help them stay afloat. Its this or generally higher prices in restaurants.
kalaksi 2y ago
That just means that it wasn't about money for him.
- godelski 2y ago
  Maybe. Or maybe he still lives like he is poor. If he does, or if he lives in any way where he is considering money as meaningful, then he is delusional. The man has so much money he can buy a mega yacht with less than a week's passive income. If money means anything to him, he is does not understand. If he also doesn't see how he can fundamentally change people's lives in a single act that means nothing to him, what does that say? After all, this is a man who could dump a pile of hundred dollar bills on the table every day, at every restaurant and coffee shop he visits and the act is less of a burden to him than it is for us to hold a door open for someone who's an awkward distance away. Money is a proxy. Did we forget what it was for?
kubb 2y ago
One problem with unbounded capitalism is that people can’t understand how big big numbers are. They think of themselves but slightly richer. So of course people should be able to accumulate the wealth of a city or a country, and there’s no negative aspect to that at all. They just worked like we do. And they should get gains on their wealth just like we do for our retirement. There’s no difference except a couple of zeros.
- godelski 2y ago
  I'm not against "unbounded" capitalism, but certainly there should be things in place that ensure adequate competition is taking place. So I prefer "unfettered". I think this is of special concern given that the Silicon Valley Model is to literally become a monopoly. That's not good for anyone, including the company. That said, obviously I have some concerns on the billionaire class, especially the hundred billionaires. > can’t understand how big big numbers are. It isn't just this (though it is true[0]), but that money works extremely differently at this scale. Interest is not a rounding error, or something you think about being influential down the line. Passive income is so great that it gets difficult to imagine. There's those sites[1] that have you try to spend a large fortune and they don't even get to the different part. That being that for people like Elon, anything on that list can be bought by a week's worth of... doing nothing. That the passive income is so high that the problem isn't even that you couldn't spend the money if it was not growing, but that it grows so fast that you can't even spend it if you tried really hard. Spending a static billion dollars is incredibly difficult and you have to get creative. But in the real world with interest, it is exponentially more difficult. I think the best example of this is MacKenzie Scott, Jeff Bezos's ex-wife. She's been spending her money as fast as she can and she "hasn't lost a dime". Forbes had her starting at $36bn and currently has her at $35.6B[2]. In the time since she has divorced Bezos she's given away nearly $17bn. We're talking less than 5 years.... In <5 years she's "spent" half of her static wealth and still has what she started with. Money at this level simply does not work the same way and a lot of people do not fundamentally understand this. But there's also a psychological issue I don't get. What is the point of having so much "fuck you money" if you are not going to tell people to fuck off. Certainly they do at times, but often they don't. To have the wealth to do whatever you want, to be unconstrained, unburdened, and to still have anxiety and concern? To be stressed? I can understand that old habits die hard, but they do die. [0] I started my academic life in physics. We do giant numbers and tiny numbers. I can with great certainty assert that our brains are not made to actualize these numbers. It is amazing that we have the math to work with them but when you stop to compare and it blows your mind. This is not done enough. [1] https://www.spend-elon-fortune.com/ https://www.spend-elon-fortune.com/ or articles like this https://youngfinances.com/spend-1-billion-dollars-you-cant-heres-why/ https://youngfinances.com/spend-1-billion-dollars-you-cant-h... [2] https://www.forbes.com/profile/mackenzie-scott/ https://www.forbes.com/profile/mackenzie-scott/
pheatherlite 2y ago
That's not the point, though. It's not how generous he is with his money. It's how he sees money, its purpose in his life. People who see wealth as a force multiplier don't gorm habits of being careless with it. Just like you see people who have no money live pay check to pay check, take on debt just to assume a class they don't exist in. Yet you used to see Bezos in a camry and Buffet in some equally run of the mill car. It's because these people place value on everything, a car to themis just depreciating numbers. They formed a habit of critically assessing the "why". Back to the topic at hand: Tipping is a ridiculous notion that the wealthy can see through, while the rest of us are too brainwashed to objectively analyze
- freilanzer 2y ago
  > Back to the topic at hand: Tipping is a ridiculous notion that the wealthy can see through, while the rest of us are too brainwashed to objectively analyze Oh yes, the wealthy are superior to us unwashed masses in every way. How I wish I could see through and objectively analyse, but my bank account won't allow that.
- bravetraveler 2y ago
  The phrase, penny wise and pound foolish comes to mind, though probably doesn't strictly apply. I don't spend my life reading. I read then live. I don't see this hyper-optimization as a good thing. Externalities and so on. Of course dragons hoard coins. They look nice, bring good things, and who is going to stop them? "Game theory" is broadly applicable All this to say: if tipping is a life altering decision for you, I have news. You're closer to the townsperson than the dragon, outlook is grim. Now the cycle may continue!
- ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
  > Tipping is a ridiculous notion that the wealthy can see through, while the rest of us are too brainwashed to objectively analyze Tipping culture is quite different in the Americas than it is in e.g. the UK. I don't think it takes much effort to analyse that the winners of tipping culture are the restaurant/bar owners as they don't have to pay their staff properly and can avoid tax. Whilst I don't like tipping culture, I think there's a different reason as to why billionaires might not tip - greed. Normal people would never get to be a billionaire as it takes a particular kind of greed to have millions of dollars and to be determined to hoard even more money when you know full well that it's often made by exploiting the employees that made you all those millions. It's a very nasty, selfish form of hoarding that hurts society, so don't be surprised when billionaires demonstrate that they don't care about anyone else.
LudwigNagasena 2y ago
Why should he give money to someone over literally any other person in the same establishment or outside of it? What does that have to do with "the man"?
gitaarik 2y ago
So what's your point, should he have tipped?
justanotherjoe 2y ago
That's crazy, i didn't know that. That is a guy who is 2 orders of magnitude above a 'mere' billionaire. And for what? Because he was friends with bill gates at Harvard, and employee#30 at microsoft. Talk about capitalism's greatest mistakes.
- bravetraveler 2y ago
  Developers, developers, developers. I'm no fan of the guy but he definitely had a bigger role than proximity. My distaste is exactly because of how he spent his time working. I believe we'd be further along without them, considering efforts against free/libre software.
DSingularity 2y ago
What’s the saying? Everyone is acting like they are a multi-millionaire that is in a temporary financial bind?
oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
Like you say, at his level of wealth, the actual dollars and cents become almost meaningless. Setting aside whether somebody in that position should be leaving a tip, how could you not want to? I would love to have the experience of just dropping a $1k tip to see what it's like. Maybe he did that once so never felt the need to again.
- itsoktocry 2y ago
  >I would love to have the experience of just dropping a $1k tip to see what it's like. What exactly are your expectations here?
  - oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
    I'm not sure, that's exactly why I'd like to experience it and find out! I guess the server would be very grateful, but who knows. They might tell me it will change their life in some way, the restaurant might name a dish after me, countless things could happen.
- username332211 2y ago
  Or maybe he does tip generously, and maybe he does throw of dollars, but only does it to actual waiting staff? After all, that's the issue most people seem to have here. It makes no sense to psychoanalyze a Ballmer's mind from this short episode.
AlexDragusin 2y ago
I like how in this case 1e11 almost reads as "hell" :)
potato3732842 2y ago
It really rubs me the wrong way that you tell everyone to chill and then go on to levy your own value judgement of the situation. If you want to larp as the ref or moderator you don't get to pick a side.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

Everyone, chill Regardless of how you feel about tipping culture we're not talking about the average person nor are we talking about the average *experience*.

keyle 2y ago

"Everyone, chill" then proceeds to drop emphasis, F words and other strong words. Maybe take a page of your own book.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
HaZeust 2y ago
The substance of his comment is still well-intentioned though. I agree with him.
- RandomThoughts3 2y ago
  Random person writes completely unsourced negative comment about someone HN dislikes for no reason. HN cheers before launching in a pointless and already rehashed a thousands times discussion about tipping culture. I don’t know if it’s well intentioned but it’s peak HN.
godelski 2y ago
Chill because you all are giving me anxiety that I don't need. Idk how to tell you this, but this is a pretty common pattern for human speech. You see it in plenty of countries, plenty of cultures. Welcome to Earth. Words mean more than the literal dictionary interpretation of them. Edit: I only have sass in me tonight.
- cinntaile 2y ago
  The workweek just started, you gotta save some sass for the rest of the week too.
  - godelski 2y ago
    I'm a grad student and ABD (all but dissertation). My work week has no beginning nor end. But don't worry, I still got plenty in me.
pinkmuffinere 2y ago
I read “everyone chill” to mean “there’s a lot of bad takes here”, not literally “remain calm”. In that context, I think the comment makes sense — they’re illustrating just how wrong the common take is
- paulddraper 2y ago
  I've literally never heard that expression before
  - mrmlz 2y ago
    Someone learns something new everyday!
  - bravetraveler 2y ago
    I have, now what do we do? Which of us controls the language?
    - pinkmuffinere 2y ago
      Rock paper scissors for it
      - bravetraveler 2y ago
        I really don't like this medium for it, when/where? :)
    - paulddraper 2y ago
      Whoever is able to use it to communicate ideas.
      - bravetraveler 2y ago
        Alas, we are no further. Remember how we got here: you opened with what barely qualifies as an anecdote. Not remotely an idea. I'm trying to be fair. How about we go with the rock-paper-scissors suggestion?

ryandv 2y ago

This is eye-opening. I make a fraction of what Steve does and am still dumb enough to be hitting 20% at the machine every time I go out. If 0% is good enough for Mr. Ballmer, it's good enough for me.

ethbr1 2y ago
There's a difference between being frugal and being an asshole. If you have enough money that tips are a rounding error for you -- not tipping just makes you an asshole.
- 71bw 2y ago
  It's none of your business to ever tip anywhere UNLESS you explicitly want to thank somebody for their service. How hard is that to understand? It is the workplace's responsibility to pay their staff adequately. NOT YOURS. 0% tip all the way everywhere. No matter if I have $10 or $10k on the bill.
  - YawningAngel 2y ago
    There are lots of instances in which it is in fact your responsibility to pay the staff and if you choose to ignore that fact and stiff them that's on you
    - highwaylights 2y ago
      I do tip, but is this perspective really helping the people that live off their tips? You don’t feel the need to tip the people stacking shelves at Walmart or the Amazon driver. In almost any other job we reasonably expect that someone’s compensation is between them and their employer and that the state should be making sure they’re protected from exploitatively low income. Why are waiting staff a special case? People have worse jobs that come without tips and it doesn’t seem to bother anybody. Those tips are expected now and irrelevant to service so it’s also just helping employers get away with paying those staff members less, so it’s really just subsidizing restaurants and cafes at this point.

roenxi 2y ago

> Still, if I'm a regular somewhere and they are giving me special service, I'm gonna throw a few dollars into the tip jar. There are some philosophical problems there. The business/servers can't renegotiate the menu like that - if they aren't getting paid for a service and the customer didn't ask for it then there is no reason they should get more money for it. Also, an observation about how the economics of regulars work - if you are a regular the business is probably already making a lot of money off you. Someone who goes back even a single time earns them 2x as much as a one-time walk in. Being a regular is already a favour to a business even if all you do is order something cheap off the menu. In my experience, when a business identifies that I am a regular they try to make me pay less to keep me coming back.

antaviana 2y ago
Actually, there is a restaurant where I go sometimes that when I pay cash instead of with a credit card, the owner gets so elated that rounds down the amount to pay in some 3-7%. The countertip I guess.
- ryandv 2y ago
  Restaurants and bars especially in my city love tax evasion - that's why they are so enthusiastic about cash payments.
  - jajko 2y ago
    Yes thats normally the main drive, cash is usually just annoyance and additional risk to business. I wouldnt be too harsh judging that business though, quite a few restaurants are barely cutting it so this may help them stay afloat. Its this or generally higher prices in restaurants.

kalaksi 2y ago

That just means that it wasn't about money for him.

godelski 2y ago
Maybe. Or maybe he still lives like he is poor. If he does, or if he lives in any way where he is considering money as meaningful, then he is delusional. The man has so much money he can buy a mega yacht with less than a week's passive income. If money means anything to him, he is does not understand. If he also doesn't see how he can fundamentally change people's lives in a single act that means nothing to him, what does that say? After all, this is a man who could dump a pile of hundred dollar bills on the table every day, at every restaurant and coffee shop he visits and the act is less of a burden to him than it is for us to hold a door open for someone who's an awkward distance away. Money is a proxy. Did we forget what it was for?

kubb 2y ago

One problem with unbounded capitalism is that people can’t understand how big big numbers are. They think of themselves but slightly richer. So of course people should be able to accumulate the wealth of a city or a country, and there’s no negative aspect to that at all. They just worked like we do. And they should get gains on their wealth just like we do for our retirement. There’s no difference except a couple of zeros.

godelski 2y ago
I'm not against "unbounded" capitalism, but certainly there should be things in place that ensure adequate competition is taking place. So I prefer "unfettered". I think this is of special concern given that the Silicon Valley Model is to literally become a monopoly. That's not good for anyone, including the company. That said, obviously I have some concerns on the billionaire class, especially the hundred billionaires. > can’t understand how big big numbers are. It isn't just this (though it is true[0]), but that money works extremely differently at this scale. Interest is not a rounding error, or something you think about being influential down the line. Passive income is so great that it gets difficult to imagine. There's those sites[1] that have you try to spend a large fortune and they don't even get to the different part. That being that for people like Elon, anything on that list can be bought by a week's worth of... doing nothing. That the passive income is so high that the problem isn't even that you couldn't spend the money if it was not growing, but that it grows so fast that you can't even spend it if you tried really hard. Spending a static billion dollars is incredibly difficult and you have to get creative. But in the real world with interest, it is exponentially more difficult. I think the best example of this is MacKenzie Scott, Jeff Bezos's ex-wife. She's been spending her money as fast as she can and she "hasn't lost a dime". Forbes had her starting at $36bn and currently has her at $35.6B[2]. In the time since she has divorced Bezos she's given away nearly $17bn. We're talking less than 5 years.... In <5 years she's "spent" half of her static wealth and still has what she started with. Money at this level simply does not work the same way and a lot of people do not fundamentally understand this. But there's also a psychological issue I don't get. What is the point of having so much "fuck you money" if you are not going to tell people to fuck off. Certainly they do at times, but often they don't. To have the wealth to do whatever you want, to be unconstrained, unburdened, and to still have anxiety and concern? To be stressed? I can understand that old habits die hard, but they do die. [0] I started my academic life in physics. We do giant numbers and tiny numbers. I can with great certainty assert that our brains are not made to actualize these numbers. It is amazing that we have the math to work with them but when you stop to compare and it blows your mind. This is not done enough. [1] https://www.spend-elon-fortune.com/ https://www.spend-elon-fortune.com/ or articles like this https://youngfinances.com/spend-1-billion-dollars-you-cant-heres-why/ https://youngfinances.com/spend-1-billion-dollars-you-cant-h... [2] https://www.forbes.com/profile/mackenzie-scott/ https://www.forbes.com/profile/mackenzie-scott/

pheatherlite 2y ago

That's not the point, though. It's not how generous he is with his money. It's how he sees money, its purpose in his life. People who see wealth as a force multiplier don't gorm habits of being careless with it. Just like you see people who have no money live pay check to pay check, take on debt just to assume a class they don't exist in. Yet you used to see Bezos in a camry and Buffet in some equally run of the mill car. It's because these people place value on everything, a car to themis just depreciating numbers. They formed a habit of critically assessing the "why". Back to the topic at hand: Tipping is a ridiculous notion that the wealthy can see through, while the rest of us are too brainwashed to objectively analyze

freilanzer 2y ago
> Back to the topic at hand: Tipping is a ridiculous notion that the wealthy can see through, while the rest of us are too brainwashed to objectively analyze Oh yes, the wealthy are superior to us unwashed masses in every way. How I wish I could see through and objectively analyse, but my bank account won't allow that.
bravetraveler 2y ago
The phrase, penny wise and pound foolish comes to mind, though probably doesn't strictly apply. I don't spend my life reading. I read then live. I don't see this hyper-optimization as a good thing. Externalities and so on. Of course dragons hoard coins. They look nice, bring good things, and who is going to stop them? "Game theory" is broadly applicable All this to say: if tipping is a life altering decision for you, I have news. You're closer to the townsperson than the dragon, outlook is grim. Now the cycle may continue!
ndsipa_pomu 2y ago
> Tipping is a ridiculous notion that the wealthy can see through, while the rest of us are too brainwashed to objectively analyze Tipping culture is quite different in the Americas than it is in e.g. the UK. I don't think it takes much effort to analyse that the winners of tipping culture are the restaurant/bar owners as they don't have to pay their staff properly and can avoid tax. Whilst I don't like tipping culture, I think there's a different reason as to why billionaires might not tip - greed. Normal people would never get to be a billionaire as it takes a particular kind of greed to have millions of dollars and to be determined to hoard even more money when you know full well that it's often made by exploiting the employees that made you all those millions. It's a very nasty, selfish form of hoarding that hurts society, so don't be surprised when billionaires demonstrate that they don't care about anyone else.

LudwigNagasena 2y ago

Why should he give money to someone over literally any other person in the same establishment or outside of it? What does that have to do with "the man"?

gitaarik 2y ago

So what's your point, should he have tipped?

justanotherjoe 2y ago

That's crazy, i didn't know that. That is a guy who is 2 orders of magnitude above a 'mere' billionaire. And for what? Because he was friends with bill gates at Harvard, and employee#30 at microsoft. Talk about capitalism's greatest mistakes.

bravetraveler 2y ago
Developers, developers, developers. I'm no fan of the guy but he definitely had a bigger role than proximity. My distaste is exactly because of how he spent his time working. I believe we'd be further along without them, considering efforts against free/libre software.

DSingularity 2y ago

What’s the saying? Everyone is acting like they are a multi-millionaire that is in a temporary financial bind?

oneeyedpigeon 2y ago

Like you say, at his level of wealth, the actual dollars and cents become almost meaningless. Setting aside whether somebody in that position should be leaving a tip, how could you not want to? I would love to have the experience of just dropping a $1k tip to see what it's like. Maybe he did that once so never felt the need to again.

itsoktocry 2y ago
>I would love to have the experience of just dropping a $1k tip to see what it's like. What exactly are your expectations here?
- oneeyedpigeon 2y ago
  I'm not sure, that's exactly why I'd like to experience it and find out! I guess the server would be very grateful, but who knows. They might tell me it will change their life in some way, the restaurant might name a dish after me, countless things could happen.
username332211 2y ago
Or maybe he does tip generously, and maybe he does throw of dollars, but only does it to actual waiting staff? After all, that's the issue most people seem to have here. It makes no sense to psychoanalyze a Ballmer's mind from this short episode.

AlexDragusin 2y ago

I like how in this case 1e11 almost reads as "hell" :)

potato3732842 2y ago

It really rubs me the wrong way that you tell everyone to chill and then go on to levy your own value judgement of the situation. If you want to larp as the ref or moderator you don't get to pick a side.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]