4 ms·

Thank you for creating my favorite app framework. That said, I literally only use Flutter as a hobbyist. I made a basic web game for a friend, and a small web

Thank you for creating my favorite app framework. That said, I literally only use Flutter as a hobbyist. I made a basic web game for a friend, and a small web app that helps me manage my music lyric videos. I ultimately picked Flutter because I find it easier than actually building websites. Dart is amazing. But I'm not deploying to millions of users. At most 10 people have seen my Flutter apps. It's VERY good for creating quick crud apps with Firebase. Just counting the number of us who have it installed and might of spun up hello world says nothing about it's actual market share. To be clear, I absolutely love Flutter, but it's still not something I really see job listings for. Dart is great too BTW.

refulgentis 2y ago
on behalf of one of the Flutter founders, thank you for the thank yous. I bet they'd mean a bit more if it wasn't coupled to a lengthy thinking-out-loud post that casts doubt on it, based on how many job listings you see, for something you don't look for job listings for. Quick Google shows Dart 10th, right below SQL, right above Kotlin. https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-8-most-demanded-programming-languages/ https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-8-most-demanded-prog...
- davedx 2y ago
  0.58% of jobs?
  - refulgentis 2y ago
    If you think its not popular until that increases past one of: JS, Python, Java, C#, PHP, C/C++, Ruby, Go, or SQL...I don't really know what to say. :)
    - ignoramous 2y ago
      Flutter in Kotlin instead of Dart would have killed! Alas. Hopefully, Kotlin Multi-Platform holds up as good as Flutter has (the rendering architecture based on Skia seems similar between the two frameworks).
      - refulgentis 2y ago
        Yes, I agree, trying to use Kotlin instead of Dart would have killed Flutter. I've been hearing about Kotlin multiplatform just as long as flutter, and writing Kotlin since 2019. Kotlin is a horrible daily driver. I worked on Android for Google at 7 years, and maybe it'd have a better chance if it didn't win internally. As it stands, there's too many organizational boundaries created, and each organization holds itself accountable only within itself, so it's sort of the worst of all worlds, impedance mismatches everywhere, and nobodys fault they exist I'm always stunned to read wish casting about Kotlin because there's ~0 path to even basic things that change productivity dramatically, like hot reload.
        999900000999 2y ago
        I'm going to be honest. C# , NodeJS, Python and rarely Java( had a rough year), pay my bills. Flutter/Dart doesn't. If you know someone hiring a Flutter developer I'm 100% down to interview. I don't hate Kotlin, it feels like Google's answer to Swift( although Java was never as hard as Objective C). I even built a small project with it. Can we at least agree it's weird Google is trying to promote 2 different languages for multiplatform development? Let me compare Unity to Flutter for a bit. When Unity jobs are hard to come by, I'm still an OK C# dev. Flutter/Dart doesn't offer they same freedom. Say what you want about Microsoft, but C# can essentially do anything. Including keeping me employed.
        refulgentis 2y ago
        Only for the crowd, I need point out that no one's arguing there's more Dart jobs than C#. Re: multiple frameworks, I worked at Google and would argue I know as much as anyone does exactly what happened there, so I can't agree it's weird, per se. Handwaving, I'd say that's because the situation seems more 'certain' or 'settled' to me, for good reasons, but ones not worth getting into. There's absolutely tons of threads to unpack in your comment, I wish we were in person. Speaking generally, based on observation you gravitated most towards discussing qualities of a job one might or might not get: I essentially left my job at Google for no paycheck, partially because Google x Koyaanisqatsi, partially because I just couldn't imagine having to go back to write Kotlin and/or Java day to day and being criticized either way. That being said, it's deflating seeing Flutter job listings after getting into this whole industry from iOS dev. Thing with Flutter jobs is there's tons of low priced job seeking competition that are smart as hell. That's because it is unusually effective in environments where people can't afford a Macbook only for iOS dev, and at this point in its lifecycle, it self selects for people who get experience with new frameworks
- alias_neo 2y ago
  > I bet they'd mean a bit more if it wasn't coupled to a lengthy thinking-out-loud post that casts doubt on it, based on how many job listings you see, for something you don't look for job listings for. Did you really just thank the guy for saying thanks, but give him a big fuck you in the same breath for not being a 100% kool-aid drinker? Speechless.
  - meiraleal 2y ago
    Absolutely speechless. on behalf of one of the Flutter founders, he made all of them look bad.
    - 999900000999 2y ago
      I like to just think he's passionate. My point was you just can't count SDK downloads as developers. Is every CI/CD pipeline a developer ? The founder of Flutter who posted that stat has a startup which is heavily invested in the perception of Flutter being popular. In the Unity community we aren't afraid to critique Unity and even suggest trying other engines. Of course Unity isn't open source so you don't get articles like this where someone claims it's time to fork. At the same time, Unity uses C#, so you can take your skills, and even some nuget packages( with a bit of work) elsewhere if you want to switch. Flutter requires a higher time commitment since I have to learn a language that's exclusive to Flutter. If this ship goes down I can't use Dart with anything else. Anyway, I think job postings are a much better metric of adoption. I like Flutter, I've used it for 4 years and I want it to succeed. I don't want to go back to react native!
  - refulgentis 2y ago
    No, I sarcastically thanked him for free-association about the # of job listings he sees for job listings he's not looking for and what that means about the language. I'm guess I'm capable of being curious and engaging in conversation, beyond sitting in the bleachers grading everyone on my scale that at 100% is "koolaid drinker.", depending on if I feel like the things they're talking about are on Team A or Team B I've identified. Then again, that perspective would sort of come naturally if I were reading hysterics into every comment I read. "Big fuck you" is textbook catastrophizing.

refulgentis 2y ago

on behalf of one of the Flutter founders, thank you for the thank yous. I bet they'd mean a bit more if it wasn't coupled to a lengthy thinking-out-loud post that casts doubt on it, based on how many job listings you see, for something you don't look for job listings for. Quick Google shows Dart 10th, right below SQL, right above Kotlin. https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-8-most-demanded-programming-languages/ https://www.devjobsscanner.com/blog/top-8-most-demanded-prog...

davedx 2y ago
0.58% of jobs?
- refulgentis 2y ago
  If you think its not popular until that increases past one of: JS, Python, Java, C#, PHP, C/C++, Ruby, Go, or SQL...I don't really know what to say. :)
  - ignoramous 2y ago
    Flutter in Kotlin instead of Dart would have killed! Alas. Hopefully, Kotlin Multi-Platform holds up as good as Flutter has (the rendering architecture based on Skia seems similar between the two frameworks).
    - refulgentis 2y ago
      Yes, I agree, trying to use Kotlin instead of Dart would have killed Flutter. I've been hearing about Kotlin multiplatform just as long as flutter, and writing Kotlin since 2019. Kotlin is a horrible daily driver. I worked on Android for Google at 7 years, and maybe it'd have a better chance if it didn't win internally. As it stands, there's too many organizational boundaries created, and each organization holds itself accountable only within itself, so it's sort of the worst of all worlds, impedance mismatches everywhere, and nobodys fault they exist I'm always stunned to read wish casting about Kotlin because there's ~0 path to even basic things that change productivity dramatically, like hot reload.
      - 999900000999 2y ago
        I'm going to be honest. C# , NodeJS, Python and rarely Java( had a rough year), pay my bills. Flutter/Dart doesn't. If you know someone hiring a Flutter developer I'm 100% down to interview. I don't hate Kotlin, it feels like Google's answer to Swift( although Java was never as hard as Objective C). I even built a small project with it. Can we at least agree it's weird Google is trying to promote 2 different languages for multiplatform development? Let me compare Unity to Flutter for a bit. When Unity jobs are hard to come by, I'm still an OK C# dev. Flutter/Dart doesn't offer they same freedom. Say what you want about Microsoft, but C# can essentially do anything. Including keeping me employed.
        refulgentis 2y ago
        Only for the crowd, I need point out that no one's arguing there's more Dart jobs than C#. Re: multiple frameworks, I worked at Google and would argue I know as much as anyone does exactly what happened there, so I can't agree it's weird, per se. Handwaving, I'd say that's because the situation seems more 'certain' or 'settled' to me, for good reasons, but ones not worth getting into. There's absolutely tons of threads to unpack in your comment, I wish we were in person. Speaking generally, based on observation you gravitated most towards discussing qualities of a job one might or might not get: I essentially left my job at Google for no paycheck, partially because Google x Koyaanisqatsi, partially because I just couldn't imagine having to go back to write Kotlin and/or Java day to day and being criticized either way. That being said, it's deflating seeing Flutter job listings after getting into this whole industry from iOS dev. Thing with Flutter jobs is there's tons of low priced job seeking competition that are smart as hell. That's because it is unusually effective in environments where people can't afford a Macbook only for iOS dev, and at this point in its lifecycle, it self selects for people who get experience with new frameworks
alias_neo 2y ago
> I bet they'd mean a bit more if it wasn't coupled to a lengthy thinking-out-loud post that casts doubt on it, based on how many job listings you see, for something you don't look for job listings for. Did you really just thank the guy for saying thanks, but give him a big fuck you in the same breath for not being a 100% kool-aid drinker? Speechless.
- meiraleal 2y ago
  Absolutely speechless. on behalf of one of the Flutter founders, he made all of them look bad.
  - 999900000999 2y ago
    I like to just think he's passionate. My point was you just can't count SDK downloads as developers. Is every CI/CD pipeline a developer ? The founder of Flutter who posted that stat has a startup which is heavily invested in the perception of Flutter being popular. In the Unity community we aren't afraid to critique Unity and even suggest trying other engines. Of course Unity isn't open source so you don't get articles like this where someone claims it's time to fork. At the same time, Unity uses C#, so you can take your skills, and even some nuget packages( with a bit of work) elsewhere if you want to switch. Flutter requires a higher time commitment since I have to learn a language that's exclusive to Flutter. If this ship goes down I can't use Dart with anything else. Anyway, I think job postings are a much better metric of adoption. I like Flutter, I've used it for 4 years and I want it to succeed. I don't want to go back to react native!
- refulgentis 2y ago
  No, I sarcastically thanked him for free-association about the # of job listings he sees for job listings he's not looking for and what that means about the language. I'm guess I'm capable of being curious and engaging in conversation, beyond sitting in the bleachers grading everyone on my scale that at 100% is "koolaid drinker.", depending on if I feel like the things they're talking about are on Team A or Team B I've identified. Then again, that perspective would sort of come naturally if I were reading hysterics into every comment I read. "Big fuck you" is textbook catastrophizing.