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Sure, but to be honest, I don’t think you should be shipping a high-spec computer with a built-in screen. Anything high-spec should be broken into at least a se

Sure, but to be honest, I don’t think you should be shipping a high-spec computer with a built-in screen. Anything high-spec should be broken into at least a separate screen and computer. The screen is such a major point of failure. I’ve seen so many iMacs and MacBooks with broken screens where the end solution is to replace the entire device, which is a waste. It’s that much more of a waste if you are getting a high-spec version.

simonw 2y ago
Yeah, that's my biggest complaint with iMacs: I want to be 100% certain I can repurpose them as monitors later in their lives. I have a ten year old iMac at the moment that would make an amazing second monitor... but it doesn't quite have the features I need to use it like that. An HDMI input would be great.
- lisper 2y ago
  > An HDMI input would be great. There is a reason that is difficult to do: the licensing terms for HDMI require manufacturers to put DRM in place to make it impossible (or at least not straightforward) to record from an HDMI source. It's nearly impossible to meet that requirement on a computer.
  - tcoff91 2y ago
    DisplayPort doesn't have that same restriction, right?
    - lisper 2y ago
      I don't know, but probably not. It's a legal requirement for HDMI, not a technical one. It's actually not hard to build an HDMI recorder, you just can't legally sell one. But bootleg recorders are easy to find.
  - buccal 2y ago
    HP does HDMI-in in somo of its AIOs: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-eliteone-840-g9-all-in-one-pc-wolf-pro-security-edition-p-a27jlua-aba-1 https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-eliteone-840-g9-all-in-...
    - lisper 2y ago
      It's not impossible, but it has to be a completely separate signal chain that bypasses the PC. (Well, OK, it's theoretically possible to do it other ways, but it would be really hard.)
  - fwip 2y ago
    Couldn't you "just" wire the HDMI port to the panel control logic? That is, the HDMI-in doesn't connect to the computer part of the iMac, just to the display circuitry. Edit: nevermind, I see you addressed this in another comment.
  - sleepybrett 2y ago
    They could design it in such a way that the hdmi input port bypasses the whole 'computer' and goes straight into the display board. If it's plugged in the 'computer' could either not boot or just run headless, i'd prefer the former (just to save on energy costs).
  - kmeisthax 2y ago
    You're thinking of HDCP, not HDMI. HDMI recorders exist (Elgato built an entire brand off selling them for console game streaming) but they are not allowed to speak HDCP because gestures vaguely at DMCA 1201. In the specific case of the iMac: - USB-C video outputs are all either DisplayPort[0]. HDMI Forum was promoting an HDMI USB-C altmode but it was never implemented. USB-C HDMI adapters are all DisplayPort adapters that additionally tunnel DVI traffic (because HDMI 1.x is actually single-link DVI with a funny connector and extra bits). - Apple used to support Target Display Mode for video input until the Retina iMac a decade ago. They dropped Target Display Mode because their 5K display panels were using eight lanes of DisplayPort, a configuration that doesn't exist[1] outside of Apple's custom display controllers. Every other 5K display (and even some 4K ones) were instead using multiple cables, with some extra (poorly-supported) metadata to tell the graphics card to treat both halves of the display as one. Why Apple hasn't brought TDM back now that we have enough bandwidth for 4.5K over standard cables is beyond me. [0] Or MyDP, aka "the funny Nintendo Switch altmode" [1] Think of it like a "32-lane PCIe port". It's technically possible but no host or device silicon supports a link that wide.
    - lisper 2y ago
      Yes, that's right. Thanks for pointing that out. https://www.makeuseof.com/hdcp-vs-hdmi-whats-the-difference/ https://www.makeuseof.com/hdcp-vs-hdmi-whats-the-difference/
    - wtallis 2y ago
      > USB-C HDMI adapters are all DisplayPort adapters that additionally tunnel DVI traffic Not tunnel, convert: these are active adapters that take in a DisplayPort signal from the computer and re-encode it as a DVI/HDMI output signal. The computer doesn't need to know or care that there's HDMI happening downstream, because it's still just outputting DisplayPort signal. It's not like Thunderbolt where DisplayPort traffic is tunneled inside a different signalling mode that the host machine supports. This is why USB-C to HDMI adapters are unidirectional (at least, all the mainstream commodity ones). You'd need a different converter chip to do the conversion in the other direction.
- hultner 2y ago
  You probably know this but it’s possible to buy a controller card for the panel on Ali Express and retro-fit into the case and use as a monitor if you are ready to retire the computer itself. I’m contemplating doing this myself at some point but my maxed out 2019 iMac upgraded to 128GB ram and extra SSD is still plenty fast for me, actually feels subjectively quicker than my M2 Pro MacBook Pro with significantly less ram feel. I was a bit surprised as I had read all the hype of the responsiveness of the Apple M-machines.
- eastbound 2y ago
  If they could be used as monitors, then my iMac 2018 would still be worth 1700€ (the price of the Apple monitor)! Instead, the 2018 iMac is incredibly slow, and can be thrown away.
seanmcdirmid 2y ago
> The screen is such a major point of failure. The screen of an iMac (at least the 5K 27" one) is the part that still has value, so its annoying when you can't use it on new hardware.
- klodolph 2y ago
  Yes, that is annoying. There’s also such a massive price difference between 4K and 5K monitors. I’ve decided just to accept 4K everywhere because it’s so much cheaper. But I would consider getting a 5K iMac.
  - throw0101d 2y ago
    > Yes, that is annoying. There’s also such a massive price difference between 4K and 5K monitors. Perhaps check out the Asus PA27JCV: 27" at 5120x2880.
    - vesrah 2y ago
      The unfortunate part is that these aren't for sale yet and we don't know how they actually compare to the existing LG 5k or Apple Studio display. It is nice to see more options coming to market.
      - throw0101d 2y ago
        > The unfortunate part is that these aren't for sale yet […] They were announced 'all the way' back in June, and I've heard rumours of October 31 being the ship date, so perhaps check back next week. In the US, B&H is taking pre-orders, so presumably it can't be that far off: * https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1850479-REG/asus_pa27jcv_27_proart_5k_usb_c.html https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1850479-REG/asus_pa27...
  - msisk6 2y ago
    I have a MacBook Air on my desk plugged into a Apple 27-inch 5k Studio Display next to my work MacBook Pro plugged into a cheap AOC 27-inch 4k display via HDMI and frankly there's not much difference. The speakers and mic in the Apple display are nice, but if you're just concerned about the display itself save yourself the bucks and stay with the 4k.
cududa 2y ago
Great. But plenty of consumers disagree with you, which is why this product exists. Not everything you see is designed to be useful for you specifically
- falcor84 2y ago
  > plenty of consumers disagree with you What do you mean? This was just announced, no? Are there any sales/pre-order figures already? Also, how would you even go about analyzing the counterfactual of whether the number of people who would buy this spec are "plenty" compared to the number who would have bought a spec with more RAM had it been available?
  - cududa 2y ago
    Well by virtue of the fact that they've sold these un-repairable/ un-openable macs for 3 years now, and they're refreshing it instead of killing the product - all these things indicate consumers like the current approach
GeekyBear 2y ago
Exactly. Someone who is looking to muck about with LLMs isn't looking to pay for a 4k screen that cannot be separated from a non-upgradeable PC. If you're in the Apple ecosystem, you're going to want eithet a Mac Mini Pro or a Mac Studio, depending on where the RAM configurations on the Mac Mini Pro tops out. .

simonw 2y ago

Yeah, that's my biggest complaint with iMacs: I want to be 100% certain I can repurpose them as monitors later in their lives. I have a ten year old iMac at the moment that would make an amazing second monitor... but it doesn't quite have the features I need to use it like that. An HDMI input would be great.

lisper 2y ago
> An HDMI input would be great. There is a reason that is difficult to do: the licensing terms for HDMI require manufacturers to put DRM in place to make it impossible (or at least not straightforward) to record from an HDMI source. It's nearly impossible to meet that requirement on a computer.
- tcoff91 2y ago
  DisplayPort doesn't have that same restriction, right?
  - lisper 2y ago
    I don't know, but probably not. It's a legal requirement for HDMI, not a technical one. It's actually not hard to build an HDMI recorder, you just can't legally sell one. But bootleg recorders are easy to find.
- buccal 2y ago
  HP does HDMI-in in somo of its AIOs: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-eliteone-840-g9-all-in-one-pc-wolf-pro-security-edition-p-a27jlua-aba-1 https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-eliteone-840-g9-all-in-...
  - lisper 2y ago
    It's not impossible, but it has to be a completely separate signal chain that bypasses the PC. (Well, OK, it's theoretically possible to do it other ways, but it would be really hard.)
- fwip 2y ago
  Couldn't you "just" wire the HDMI port to the panel control logic? That is, the HDMI-in doesn't connect to the computer part of the iMac, just to the display circuitry. Edit: nevermind, I see you addressed this in another comment.
- sleepybrett 2y ago
  They could design it in such a way that the hdmi input port bypasses the whole 'computer' and goes straight into the display board. If it's plugged in the 'computer' could either not boot or just run headless, i'd prefer the former (just to save on energy costs).
- kmeisthax 2y ago
  You're thinking of HDCP, not HDMI. HDMI recorders exist (Elgato built an entire brand off selling them for console game streaming) but they are not allowed to speak HDCP because gestures vaguely at DMCA 1201. In the specific case of the iMac: - USB-C video outputs are all either DisplayPort[0]. HDMI Forum was promoting an HDMI USB-C altmode but it was never implemented. USB-C HDMI adapters are all DisplayPort adapters that additionally tunnel DVI traffic (because HDMI 1.x is actually single-link DVI with a funny connector and extra bits). - Apple used to support Target Display Mode for video input until the Retina iMac a decade ago. They dropped Target Display Mode because their 5K display panels were using eight lanes of DisplayPort, a configuration that doesn't exist[1] outside of Apple's custom display controllers. Every other 5K display (and even some 4K ones) were instead using multiple cables, with some extra (poorly-supported) metadata to tell the graphics card to treat both halves of the display as one. Why Apple hasn't brought TDM back now that we have enough bandwidth for 4.5K over standard cables is beyond me. [0] Or MyDP, aka "the funny Nintendo Switch altmode" [1] Think of it like a "32-lane PCIe port". It's technically possible but no host or device silicon supports a link that wide.
  - lisper 2y ago
    Yes, that's right. Thanks for pointing that out. https://www.makeuseof.com/hdcp-vs-hdmi-whats-the-difference/ https://www.makeuseof.com/hdcp-vs-hdmi-whats-the-difference/
  - wtallis 2y ago
    > USB-C HDMI adapters are all DisplayPort adapters that additionally tunnel DVI traffic Not tunnel, convert: these are active adapters that take in a DisplayPort signal from the computer and re-encode it as a DVI/HDMI output signal. The computer doesn't need to know or care that there's HDMI happening downstream, because it's still just outputting DisplayPort signal. It's not like Thunderbolt where DisplayPort traffic is tunneled inside a different signalling mode that the host machine supports. This is why USB-C to HDMI adapters are unidirectional (at least, all the mainstream commodity ones). You'd need a different converter chip to do the conversion in the other direction.
hultner 2y ago
You probably know this but it’s possible to buy a controller card for the panel on Ali Express and retro-fit into the case and use as a monitor if you are ready to retire the computer itself. I’m contemplating doing this myself at some point but my maxed out 2019 iMac upgraded to 128GB ram and extra SSD is still plenty fast for me, actually feels subjectively quicker than my M2 Pro MacBook Pro with significantly less ram feel. I was a bit surprised as I had read all the hype of the responsiveness of the Apple M-machines.
eastbound 2y ago
If they could be used as monitors, then my iMac 2018 would still be worth 1700€ (the price of the Apple monitor)! Instead, the 2018 iMac is incredibly slow, and can be thrown away.

seanmcdirmid 2y ago

> The screen is such a major point of failure. The screen of an iMac (at least the 5K 27" one) is the part that still has value, so its annoying when you can't use it on new hardware.

klodolph 2y ago
Yes, that is annoying. There’s also such a massive price difference between 4K and 5K monitors. I’ve decided just to accept 4K everywhere because it’s so much cheaper. But I would consider getting a 5K iMac.
- throw0101d 2y ago
  > Yes, that is annoying. There’s also such a massive price difference between 4K and 5K monitors. Perhaps check out the Asus PA27JCV: 27" at 5120x2880.
  - vesrah 2y ago
    The unfortunate part is that these aren't for sale yet and we don't know how they actually compare to the existing LG 5k or Apple Studio display. It is nice to see more options coming to market.
    - throw0101d 2y ago
      > The unfortunate part is that these aren't for sale yet […] They were announced 'all the way' back in June, and I've heard rumours of October 31 being the ship date, so perhaps check back next week. In the US, B&H is taking pre-orders, so presumably it can't be that far off: * https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1850479-REG/asus_pa27jcv_27_proart_5k_usb_c.html https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1850479-REG/asus_pa27...
- msisk6 2y ago
  I have a MacBook Air on my desk plugged into a Apple 27-inch 5k Studio Display next to my work MacBook Pro plugged into a cheap AOC 27-inch 4k display via HDMI and frankly there's not much difference. The speakers and mic in the Apple display are nice, but if you're just concerned about the display itself save yourself the bucks and stay with the 4k.

cududa 2y ago

Great. But plenty of consumers disagree with you, which is why this product exists. Not everything you see is designed to be useful for you specifically

falcor84 2y ago
> plenty of consumers disagree with you What do you mean? This was just announced, no? Are there any sales/pre-order figures already? Also, how would you even go about analyzing the counterfactual of whether the number of people who would buy this spec are "plenty" compared to the number who would have bought a spec with more RAM had it been available?
- cududa 2y ago
  Well by virtue of the fact that they've sold these un-repairable/ un-openable macs for 3 years now, and they're refreshing it instead of killing the product - all these things indicate consumers like the current approach

GeekyBear 2y ago

Exactly. Someone who is looking to muck about with LLMs isn't looking to pay for a 4k screen that cannot be separated from a non-upgradeable PC. If you're in the Apple ecosystem, you're going to want eithet a Mac Mini Pro or a Mac Studio, depending on where the RAM configurations on the Mac Mini Pro tops out. .