4 ms·

I'd be interested in numbers on some of this. From my view, the upgradability is a bit of a red herring for most users. Computers are fast enough for most use

by taeric 2y ago

I'd be interested in numbers on some of this. From my view, the upgradability is a bit of a red herring for most users. Computers are fast enough for most uses that it just doesn't matter.

stouset 2y ago
And frankly, the “upgradeability” of most desktops is a myth in my experience. By the time I’ve ever wanted to upgrade a Windows or Linux PC, a new CPU probably isn’t going to fit into the same socket as the one I had so now I need a new motherboard too. I probably want a new GPU if it was a gaming PC and if it wasn’t I would be using an integrated GPU anyway. I think the only thing I’ve ever kept from an “upgrade” was my case and some memory sticks. But I probably would have been better off—both in time and money—just selling the damn thing as a whole and buying an entirely new set of components. TL;DR, year-over-year bumps just aren’t worth the price of upgrades, but by the time it is worth doing you probably want to upgrade so many parts there’s little left to keep. YMMV.
- captnObvious 2y ago
  I agree with you entirely except for if we skip the year over year part.5- Time of purchase upgrade ability, if we’re talking about getting to 128 or 256 GB of RAM. Time of purchase to upgrade to multiple high res screens that match. Dedicated GPUs… I bet there is a top of the line home hobbiest LLM oriented GPU from Nvidia or AMD in the next 3 years that will cleanly connect to recent chip architectures. I doubt it will run optimally tied to a Mac. It’ll be something that you could also rack in a server.
- wongarsu 2y ago
  If you want a new CPU after a decade it's absolutely as you describe: you need a new mainboard and probably new memory (DDR5 just came out), and end up keeping only the case, drive, case fans and PSU, if that. For other components it mostly works. You can smoothly upgrade from 8GB RAM all the way to 128GB, get a new GPU, whatever the current WiFi standard is, more silent cooling, more, bigger or faster drives, etc. If you replace something every 2-3 years you can ship-of-theseus the same computer for a surprisingly long time at pretty low cost
  - stouset 2y ago
    I have been building and upgrading PCs for like thirty years, from 10 to 40 and through varying degrees of expendable income. I genuinely cannot ever remember there being a time where it made sense to upgrade a single component. I’m not going to say it doesn’t make sense to do so for anyone, but it certainly wasn’t in my experience.
  - neilalexander 2y ago
    You can hit a RAM limit on some lower-end motherboards quite quickly depending on the memory controller and you might only get so far with GPUs as well depending on the type of PCIe slots.
    - wtallis 2y ago
      I'm not sure what decade you have in mind, but for all the recent ones, the memory controller has both been on the CPU, and not been part of the differentiation between low-end and high-end CPUs for a given socket. So the only significant RAM limitation coming from the motherboard is if it's a small form factor board with only two slots instead of four.
- michaelt 2y ago
  Depends where you are in your life, I suspect. A person in college on a tight budget might choose a budget-conscious PC, with an average amount of RAM and a modest hard drive. A few years later, component prices will have fallen and the PC will be showing its age thanks to its modest components. Adding a larger hard drive and more RAM will get a few more years out of it. On the other hand, a mid-career professional programmer has plenty of disposable income, so if they're buying a PC today they can chuck in 128GB of RAM and not need to upgrade for the next 10 years.
  - acdha 2y ago
    If they bought a “budget conscious” PC, what are the odds that they’ll have hit the limits of their RAM but not any other component? If they bought a cheap laptop, for example, what are the odds that the hardware isn’t starting to fail? If it’s a desktop, what are the odds that by the time they need a new CPU a worthwhile upgrade will still be socket-compatible? Usually the budget options are already well into the service lifecycle for things like that and at least anecdotally the budget buyers I know buy a new one 1-2 times per decade rather than upgrading anything.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - michaelt 2y ago
      > If they bought a “budget conscious” PC, what are the odds that they’ll have hit the limits of their RAM but not any other component? 20 years ago, a budget-conscious 1.3GHz CPU for $130 was just a binned version of a high-end 1.6GHz $339 CPU. So the budget-conscious CPU would have pretty much the same longevity as a higher-end CPU. 10 years ago, a budget-conscious user could pick up a 4-physical-core ~3GHz CPU for ~$192 (like the i5-4590). Today you'd be due for an upgrade, but it wouldn't be unusably slow. Indeed, Intel are still selling 4-physical-core ~3GHz CPUs to this day, like the i3-14100. And of course components like sound cards and gigabit ethernet ports don't really 'hit their limits'. You'll probably want to upgrade your wifi, admittedly - but a USB dongle is what, $20?
- fennecbutt 2y ago
  In your experience for sure, myself and everyone I know with a desktop upgrades bit by bit where they can. My recent one was 16->32gb ram, even cheaper now since it's only ddr4. Tho the next will likely be a full upgrade as my last main build was 2018 with the mini-itx I still have. But if I want to do more ai stuff I'll probably need to hop up to m-atx or even just atx. 1080ti I'm currently on was the last before the era of sanely sized gpus came to an abrupt end
jfoster 2y ago
That's a really good point. It's been more than a decade since I last upgraded a computer.
- taeric 2y ago
  This is what had me thinking this is a red herring. I remember buying computers in the past piece wise with an eye for what component I would want next. I... can't remember the last time I did this. And for my kids, it is not something they are interested in. At all.

by taeric 2y ago

I'd be interested in numbers on some of this. From my view, the upgradability is a bit of a red herring for most users. Computers are fast enough for most uses that it just doesn't matter.

stouset 2y ago

And frankly, the “upgradeability” of most desktops is a myth in my experience. By the time I’ve ever wanted to upgrade a Windows or Linux PC, a new CPU probably isn’t going to fit into the same socket as the one I had so now I need a new motherboard too. I probably want a new GPU if it was a gaming PC and if it wasn’t I would be using an integrated GPU anyway. I think the only thing I’ve ever kept from an “upgrade” was my case and some memory sticks. But I probably would have been better off—both in time and money—just selling the damn thing as a whole and buying an entirely new set of components. TL;DR, year-over-year bumps just aren’t worth the price of upgrades, but by the time it is worth doing you probably want to upgrade so many parts there’s little left to keep. YMMV.

captnObvious 2y ago
I agree with you entirely except for if we skip the year over year part.5- Time of purchase upgrade ability, if we’re talking about getting to 128 or 256 GB of RAM. Time of purchase to upgrade to multiple high res screens that match. Dedicated GPUs… I bet there is a top of the line home hobbiest LLM oriented GPU from Nvidia or AMD in the next 3 years that will cleanly connect to recent chip architectures. I doubt it will run optimally tied to a Mac. It’ll be something that you could also rack in a server.
wongarsu 2y ago
If you want a new CPU after a decade it's absolutely as you describe: you need a new mainboard and probably new memory (DDR5 just came out), and end up keeping only the case, drive, case fans and PSU, if that. For other components it mostly works. You can smoothly upgrade from 8GB RAM all the way to 128GB, get a new GPU, whatever the current WiFi standard is, more silent cooling, more, bigger or faster drives, etc. If you replace something every 2-3 years you can ship-of-theseus the same computer for a surprisingly long time at pretty low cost
- stouset 2y ago
  I have been building and upgrading PCs for like thirty years, from 10 to 40 and through varying degrees of expendable income. I genuinely cannot ever remember there being a time where it made sense to upgrade a single component. I’m not going to say it doesn’t make sense to do so for anyone, but it certainly wasn’t in my experience.
- neilalexander 2y ago
  You can hit a RAM limit on some lower-end motherboards quite quickly depending on the memory controller and you might only get so far with GPUs as well depending on the type of PCIe slots.
  - wtallis 2y ago
    I'm not sure what decade you have in mind, but for all the recent ones, the memory controller has both been on the CPU, and not been part of the differentiation between low-end and high-end CPUs for a given socket. So the only significant RAM limitation coming from the motherboard is if it's a small form factor board with only two slots instead of four.
michaelt 2y ago
Depends where you are in your life, I suspect. A person in college on a tight budget might choose a budget-conscious PC, with an average amount of RAM and a modest hard drive. A few years later, component prices will have fallen and the PC will be showing its age thanks to its modest components. Adding a larger hard drive and more RAM will get a few more years out of it. On the other hand, a mid-career professional programmer has plenty of disposable income, so if they're buying a PC today they can chuck in 128GB of RAM and not need to upgrade for the next 10 years.
- acdha 2y ago
  If they bought a “budget conscious” PC, what are the odds that they’ll have hit the limits of their RAM but not any other component? If they bought a cheap laptop, for example, what are the odds that the hardware isn’t starting to fail? If it’s a desktop, what are the odds that by the time they need a new CPU a worthwhile upgrade will still be socket-compatible? Usually the budget options are already well into the service lifecycle for things like that and at least anecdotally the budget buyers I know buy a new one 1-2 times per decade rather than upgrading anything.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - michaelt 2y ago
    > If they bought a “budget conscious” PC, what are the odds that they’ll have hit the limits of their RAM but not any other component? 20 years ago, a budget-conscious 1.3GHz CPU for $130 was just a binned version of a high-end 1.6GHz $339 CPU. So the budget-conscious CPU would have pretty much the same longevity as a higher-end CPU. 10 years ago, a budget-conscious user could pick up a 4-physical-core ~3GHz CPU for ~$192 (like the i5-4590). Today you'd be due for an upgrade, but it wouldn't be unusably slow. Indeed, Intel are still selling 4-physical-core ~3GHz CPUs to this day, like the i3-14100. And of course components like sound cards and gigabit ethernet ports don't really 'hit their limits'. You'll probably want to upgrade your wifi, admittedly - but a USB dongle is what, $20?
fennecbutt 2y ago
In your experience for sure, myself and everyone I know with a desktop upgrades bit by bit where they can. My recent one was 16->32gb ram, even cheaper now since it's only ddr4. Tho the next will likely be a full upgrade as my last main build was 2018 with the mini-itx I still have. But if I want to do more ai stuff I'll probably need to hop up to m-atx or even just atx. 1080ti I'm currently on was the last before the era of sanely sized gpus came to an abrupt end

jfoster 2y ago

That's a really good point. It's been more than a decade since I last upgraded a computer.

taeric 2y ago
This is what had me thinking this is a red herring. I remember buying computers in the past piece wise with an eye for what component I would want next. I... can't remember the last time I did this. And for my kids, it is not something they are interested in. At all.