6 ms·

This is not a problem in other languages. The word "set" in English has 7 different meanings, yet you rarely struggle to tell which is intended. If the language

This is not a problem in other languages. The word "set" in English has 7 different meanings, yet you rarely struggle to tell which is intended. If the language can be understood when spoken, it can be understood when written phonetically.

coliveira 2y ago
Other languages are not Chinese. In Chinese a lot of the meaning in the spoken language is conveyed through tones and other conversational cues.
- James_K 2y ago
  Can you quantify this? From what I understand, Chinese speakers can understand Pinyin text even without the tone marks.
  - sparkie 2y ago
    nd nglsh spkrs cn ndrstnd nglsh wtht wrttn vwls. Easy to understand for a fluent speaker, but a learner might struggle. We saw back when we had keypad phones, the youth would write "txt" speak because it was faster to type with 10 digits. I'm pretty sure there was a decline in literacy rate around this time, the youth struggled with spelling because they wrote rarely, but texted frequently. Smartphones fixed that problem, because they provide the full keyboard and auto-correct. My guess is, if you took the tones out of pinyin, then a generation or two later there would be less literacy. Children would struggle to add the tones even though they know how to speak the word. Writing already contains far less information than speech. Over several more generations, the speech could even change because the written word has lost the tonal information. Compared to the past, we read far more, speak less, and write even less, and most writing has been replaced by typing.
    - iforgotpassword 2y ago
      Most importantly, you can always pick a simple, predictable sentence, or one with enough redundancy to "prove" that point. Some everyday simple sentences might work in pinyin even without the accents for tones. Try an excerpt from a patent application and I'm sure even with tones you'll fail. > mchncl lmt xsts t th wdth f sngl xhst prt, t bt 62% f th br dmtr fr rsnbl pstn rng lf. > Th rd vlv s smpl bt ffctv frm f chck vlv That's just from a Wikipedia page I have open from earlier. Already quite a bit harder to decipher.
    - Suppafly 2y ago
      > the youth struggled with spelling because they wrote rarely, but texted frequently I wonder if there is any evidence of that other than boomers complaining about it. >Over several more generations, the speech could even change because the written word has lost the tonal information. That happens automatically with every language already. It's not like a race to the bottom where suddenly no one knows how to communicate though. >Compared to the past, we read far more, speak less, and write even less, and most writing has been replaced by typing. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
- akavi 2y ago
  Tones can be written, and all human spoken communication involves conversational cues, Chinese is not special in this respect.
  - coliveira 2y ago
    If this was so easy, pinyin (a standardized writing) would have replaced characters decades ago!
    - James_K 2y ago
      But it is that easy. Pinyin has a standard notation for the tones of words. Your position on this matter cannot seriously be "if it were possible to write Chinese phonetically, the Chinese alphabet would no longer exist".
      - iforgotpassword 2y ago
        Their position is "since it is possible to write Chinese phonetically and yet characters didn't go away, there might be more to the story" (than self-proclaimed language experts on HN think)
        James_K 2y ago
        This is incorrect and shows a basic lack of reading comprehension. Neither I nor anyone else claimed to be a language expert. The post in question said: > If this [writing tones] was so easy, pinyin (a standardized writing) would have replaced characters decades ago! Which is saying that the reason Pinyin has not replaced traditional characters because it cannot accurately transcribe Chinese speech.
        coliveira 2y ago
        As the previous comment says, you're the one with reading comprehension problems. The topic of discussion is the replacement of Chinese characters with a phonetic writing. I said that pinyin already exists and it has not replaced characters, so this cannot be easy as you imagine (just writing down the phonetics of the language).
Suppafly 2y ago
>This is not a problem in other languages. I don't have a dog in this fight one way or the other, but it really is surprising that all these pro-kanji comments seem to ignore the concept of context altogether. It's very circular reasoning being used to try and explain why kanji are necessary.

coliveira 2y ago

Other languages are not Chinese. In Chinese a lot of the meaning in the spoken language is conveyed through tones and other conversational cues.

James_K 2y ago
Can you quantify this? From what I understand, Chinese speakers can understand Pinyin text even without the tone marks.
- sparkie 2y ago
  nd nglsh spkrs cn ndrstnd nglsh wtht wrttn vwls. Easy to understand for a fluent speaker, but a learner might struggle. We saw back when we had keypad phones, the youth would write "txt" speak because it was faster to type with 10 digits. I'm pretty sure there was a decline in literacy rate around this time, the youth struggled with spelling because they wrote rarely, but texted frequently. Smartphones fixed that problem, because they provide the full keyboard and auto-correct. My guess is, if you took the tones out of pinyin, then a generation or two later there would be less literacy. Children would struggle to add the tones even though they know how to speak the word. Writing already contains far less information than speech. Over several more generations, the speech could even change because the written word has lost the tonal information. Compared to the past, we read far more, speak less, and write even less, and most writing has been replaced by typing.
  - iforgotpassword 2y ago
    Most importantly, you can always pick a simple, predictable sentence, or one with enough redundancy to "prove" that point. Some everyday simple sentences might work in pinyin even without the accents for tones. Try an excerpt from a patent application and I'm sure even with tones you'll fail. > mchncl lmt xsts t th wdth f sngl xhst prt, t bt 62% f th br dmtr fr rsnbl pstn rng lf. > Th rd vlv s smpl bt ffctv frm f chck vlv That's just from a Wikipedia page I have open from earlier. Already quite a bit harder to decipher.
  - Suppafly 2y ago
    > the youth struggled with spelling because they wrote rarely, but texted frequently I wonder if there is any evidence of that other than boomers complaining about it. >Over several more generations, the speech could even change because the written word has lost the tonal information. That happens automatically with every language already. It's not like a race to the bottom where suddenly no one knows how to communicate though. >Compared to the past, we read far more, speak less, and write even less, and most writing has been replaced by typing. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
akavi 2y ago
Tones can be written, and all human spoken communication involves conversational cues, Chinese is not special in this respect.
- coliveira 2y ago
  If this was so easy, pinyin (a standardized writing) would have replaced characters decades ago!
  - James_K 2y ago
    But it is that easy. Pinyin has a standard notation for the tones of words. Your position on this matter cannot seriously be "if it were possible to write Chinese phonetically, the Chinese alphabet would no longer exist".
    - iforgotpassword 2y ago
      Their position is "since it is possible to write Chinese phonetically and yet characters didn't go away, there might be more to the story" (than self-proclaimed language experts on HN think)
      - James_K 2y ago
        This is incorrect and shows a basic lack of reading comprehension. Neither I nor anyone else claimed to be a language expert. The post in question said: > If this [writing tones] was so easy, pinyin (a standardized writing) would have replaced characters decades ago! Which is saying that the reason Pinyin has not replaced traditional characters because it cannot accurately transcribe Chinese speech.
        coliveira 2y ago
        As the previous comment says, you're the one with reading comprehension problems. The topic of discussion is the replacement of Chinese characters with a phonetic writing. I said that pinyin already exists and it has not replaced characters, so this cannot be easy as you imagine (just writing down the phonetics of the language).

Suppafly 2y ago

>This is not a problem in other languages. I don't have a dog in this fight one way or the other, but it really is surprising that all these pro-kanji comments seem to ignore the concept of context altogether. It's very circular reasoning being used to try and explain why kanji are necessary.