4 ms·

That’s not education. Most of it is simple memorization.

by satisfice 2y ago

drewcoo 2y ago
Understanding biology or that nouns decline is not "simple memorization."
- satisfice 2y ago
  This test doesn’t test whether you “understand biology.” Come on… seriously? The mathematics is simple. The rest of it is stuff that is simple to Google. There’s a little bit of interpretation, but none of this is about problem solving or any kind of serious analysis.
  - StefanBatory 2y ago
    Yes, but in their defense - back in those times you'd be unable to Google ;) So memorisation was necessity.
    - satisfice 2y ago
      It was a necessity. It was NOT education, except in the most trivial and, frankly, demeaning sense of that word.
      - StefanBatory 2y ago
        But it is still a base for education. You cannot use knowledge you do not have.
  - isodev 2y ago
    The modern challenge of Googling would be to separate fact from AI/fake content.
  - acka 2y ago
    > The mathematics is simple. The rest of it is stuff that is simple to Google. Perhaps I am out of the loop, but are kids allowed to Google stuff during tests nowadays? In my days we were not allowed to bring any books or notes to a test, and up until the last two years of high school no calculators either. All this besides the obvious that Google wasn't available back then. I guess many schools didn't even have a comprehensive library, let alone enough copies of a particular book to have many kids borrow them at the same time.
    - netsharc 2y ago
      I think grandparent is claiming "you can just google it" in the same vein of "Just use a calculator!". Funnily enough we're always carrying a calculator and (access to) Google in our pockets. Not that I share his view, I do think knowing facts and figures is necessary.
      - acka 2y ago
        I see. Interestingly, in my country smart devices have been banned from schools for more than a year now. I'm pretty sure that besides keeping students away from distracting social media during class, not being able to just Google stuff will also force them to put more effort in learning about facts and figures.
    - satisfice 2y ago
      That's not the point. My point is that memorization is not education. Calling any mere information retrieval task education cheapens the entire idea of having a mind and doing important things with it. Perhaps ironically, the ability to appreciate this point is not something you can achieve with Google (or by looking it up in a book). You have to think about the meaning of your experience of using your mind as you have gone through your life. At one time I memorized 1132 digits of pi. There was no point to doing this other than to experience the process of memorization and recall, itself, in a relatively pure form. I've lost most of those digits now. But the insight I gained-- which is not about retrieval but about a way of seeing and interpreting the world, stayed with me. THAT is education: the mind I've created and my process of creating it.
  - GoblinSlayer 2y ago
    Problem solving is mathematics and physics, the rest is memorization, why not, most problems are solved with knowledge, not thinking, and schools don't teach proper problem solving as it needs a philosophy course.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
    > The rest of it is stuff that is simple to Google. Have you ever seen anyone under the age of 30 try to "google" something? It's bizarre and disturbing. I've seen it for myself, but on r/teachers they have horror stories. To hear them tell it, most kids fail not by cheating, but by being unable to google anything with which to cheat. Even if we dial it down to balance the exaggeration... Inability to search with more than one keyword. Inability to decide which words are unimportant in a sentence to leave them out of the search terms. Inability to add extra words to give the search engine enough context (funny story about a high school chemistry teacher telling them "reaction" doesn't work for that unless they also include "chemistry" or "chemical"). And on and on and on.
    - ykonstant 2y ago
      In a different life, I would be an evil Chemistry teacher giving word problems always involving an experimentalist named 'Andy'.
dash2 2y ago
This is the big question. The blog says "hey, we don't teach memorization, we teach critical thinking". My response to that would be "for real critical thinking, you need memorization as a starting point. You can't think critically about the politics of the Middle East until you can point to Israel and Gaza on a map!" Who's right? Are memorization and critical thinking complements, or substitutes? This might have different answers in different fields. Like in maths, can you learn more advanced maths without a deep intuitive familiarity with numbers, the kind you get from being able to do arithmetic in your head? What about history? Can you get by without dates?
- jdmoreira 2y ago
  > My response to that would be "for real critical thinking, you need memorization as a starting point. You can't think critically about the politics of the Middle East until you can point to Israel and Gaza on a map!" Not true IMHO. You can map it to a some sort of neighbouring countries graph and a few other facts.
  - Sebb767 2y ago
    Not really, since the geography is quite important as to how the conflict evolved and where the conflict zones are.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- viraptor 2y ago
  You don't need to point at them from memory for critical thinking. You need to know how to find them and look up more details. Whether you could point them out from memory is irrelevant. (Just makes the process faster)
  - pessimizer 2y ago
    > (Just makes the process faster) So the opposite of irrelevant. You need 10 minutes before you can start to think about the question that was likely a premise for a larger argument. "To be a surgeon, knowing surgery techniques from memory is irrelevant. When called upon to do surgery, I can simply leave, attend medical school, then come back and do the surgery. What's really important is knowing where the medical school is located."
ThrowawayR2 2y ago
Memorization is rather important in an era where a big chunk of the population was farm workers in rural communities and access to information meant taking the time for a trip to the local library with a very limited selection of books.

That’s not education. Most of it is simple memorization.

drewcoo 2y ago

Understanding biology or that nouns decline is not "simple memorization."

satisfice 2y ago
This test doesn’t test whether you “understand biology.” Come on… seriously? The mathematics is simple. The rest of it is stuff that is simple to Google. There’s a little bit of interpretation, but none of this is about problem solving or any kind of serious analysis.
- StefanBatory 2y ago
  Yes, but in their defense - back in those times you'd be unable to Google ;) So memorisation was necessity.
  - satisfice 2y ago
    It was a necessity. It was NOT education, except in the most trivial and, frankly, demeaning sense of that word.
    - StefanBatory 2y ago
      But it is still a base for education. You cannot use knowledge you do not have.
- isodev 2y ago
  The modern challenge of Googling would be to separate fact from AI/fake content.
- acka 2y ago
  > The mathematics is simple. The rest of it is stuff that is simple to Google. Perhaps I am out of the loop, but are kids allowed to Google stuff during tests nowadays? In my days we were not allowed to bring any books or notes to a test, and up until the last two years of high school no calculators either. All this besides the obvious that Google wasn't available back then. I guess many schools didn't even have a comprehensive library, let alone enough copies of a particular book to have many kids borrow them at the same time.
  - netsharc 2y ago
    I think grandparent is claiming "you can just google it" in the same vein of "Just use a calculator!". Funnily enough we're always carrying a calculator and (access to) Google in our pockets. Not that I share his view, I do think knowing facts and figures is necessary.
    - acka 2y ago
      I see. Interestingly, in my country smart devices have been banned from schools for more than a year now. I'm pretty sure that besides keeping students away from distracting social media during class, not being able to just Google stuff will also force them to put more effort in learning about facts and figures.
  - satisfice 2y ago
    That's not the point. My point is that memorization is not education. Calling any mere information retrieval task education cheapens the entire idea of having a mind and doing important things with it. Perhaps ironically, the ability to appreciate this point is not something you can achieve with Google (or by looking it up in a book). You have to think about the meaning of your experience of using your mind as you have gone through your life. At one time I memorized 1132 digits of pi. There was no point to doing this other than to experience the process of memorization and recall, itself, in a relatively pure form. I've lost most of those digits now. But the insight I gained-- which is not about retrieval but about a way of seeing and interpreting the world, stayed with me. THAT is education: the mind I've created and my process of creating it.
- GoblinSlayer 2y ago
  Problem solving is mathematics and physics, the rest is memorization, why not, most problems are solved with knowledge, not thinking, and schools don't teach proper problem solving as it needs a philosophy course.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  > The rest of it is stuff that is simple to Google. Have you ever seen anyone under the age of 30 try to "google" something? It's bizarre and disturbing. I've seen it for myself, but on r/teachers they have horror stories. To hear them tell it, most kids fail not by cheating, but by being unable to google anything with which to cheat. Even if we dial it down to balance the exaggeration... Inability to search with more than one keyword. Inability to decide which words are unimportant in a sentence to leave them out of the search terms. Inability to add extra words to give the search engine enough context (funny story about a high school chemistry teacher telling them "reaction" doesn't work for that unless they also include "chemistry" or "chemical"). And on and on and on.
  - ykonstant 2y ago
    In a different life, I would be an evil Chemistry teacher giving word problems always involving an experimentalist named 'Andy'.

dash2 2y ago

This is the big question. The blog says "hey, we don't teach memorization, we teach critical thinking". My response to that would be "for real critical thinking, you need memorization as a starting point. You can't think critically about the politics of the Middle East until you can point to Israel and Gaza on a map!" Who's right? Are memorization and critical thinking complements, or substitutes? This might have different answers in different fields. Like in maths, can you learn more advanced maths without a deep intuitive familiarity with numbers, the kind you get from being able to do arithmetic in your head? What about history? Can you get by without dates?

jdmoreira 2y ago
> My response to that would be "for real critical thinking, you need memorization as a starting point. You can't think critically about the politics of the Middle East until you can point to Israel and Gaza on a map!" Not true IMHO. You can map it to a some sort of neighbouring countries graph and a few other facts.
- Sebb767 2y ago
  Not really, since the geography is quite important as to how the conflict evolved and where the conflict zones are.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
viraptor 2y ago
You don't need to point at them from memory for critical thinking. You need to know how to find them and look up more details. Whether you could point them out from memory is irrelevant. (Just makes the process faster)
- pessimizer 2y ago
  > (Just makes the process faster) So the opposite of irrelevant. You need 10 minutes before you can start to think about the question that was likely a premise for a larger argument. "To be a surgeon, knowing surgery techniques from memory is irrelevant. When called upon to do surgery, I can simply leave, attend medical school, then come back and do the surgery. What's really important is knowing where the medical school is located."

ThrowawayR2 2y ago

Memorization is rather important in an era where a big chunk of the population was farm workers in rural communities and access to information meant taking the time for a trip to the local library with a very limited selection of books.