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And yet, given the definition and language of origin, most high-level spelling bee participants can make a pretty good guess at spelling a word they may have ne

by zoky 2y ago

And yet, given the definition and language of origin, most high-level spelling bee participants can make a pretty good guess at spelling a word they may have never seen before. English is phonetic, it just borrows its pronunciation rules from many differing (and sometimes directly opposed) other languages.

brigandish 2y ago
"ough" has at least 9 different possible pronunciations, how is that phonetic?
- Suppafly 2y ago
  >"ough" has at least 9 different possible pronunciations, how is that phonetic? Does a language stop being phonetic when you have to include other information provided by the rest of the word? I'm not a linguist by any means, but "ough" being pronounced a couple different ways depending how it's used doesn't seem like it'd preclude the language from being considered phonetic in general.
  - brigandish 2y ago
    9 is not a couple, unless you're in a very open relationship - which English words might be - but a language stops being phonetic at the point that the mappings between symbols and sounds are no longer clear and reliable. The most phonetic languages have one-to-one mappings with very few exceptions e.g. Japanese, Spanish, Italian, Finnish. English, on the other hand, has silent letters, inconsistent mappings even within the same word, exceptions, irregularities, and sounds that are represented by multiple letters and spellings. English is not a phonetic language except in the sense that it does have mappings between sounds and characters, which would make sense if one were to compare it to a wholly written language like Python, but not any human language.
stephen_g 2y ago
Very true - and every demonstration of “English is hard to spell/pronounce” focuses directly on the exceptions which exaggerates the problem. One analysis I’ve seen puts it that with a single set of rules, 59% of a sample corpus of 5000 English words can be pronounced perfectly from the spelling (of course, there will be regional accent and dialect differences so that percentage will be a bit different for each one) and up to 85% can be pretty close with only slight errors. Then there’s a percentage where they’re just direct borrowings from other languages and you need to have an idea of how that language pronounces words (especially French), so really only 10-15% or so of English words end up being true exceptions. 1. https://www.zompist.com/spell.html https://www.zompist.com/spell.html
- nl 2y ago
  > a single set of rules, 59% of a sample corpus of 5000 English words can be pronounced perfectly from the spelling To do this you need to know 56(!) rules. I think this actually demonstrates how complex English pronunciation actually is.
  - poincaredisk 2y ago
    And you still only get 59% of the way to the correct pronunciation. As a non native speaker of English, and a native speaker of a phonetic language, I strongly object to the notion that it's easy to guess English word pronunciation by just reading it.
    - coliveira 2y ago
      And that's another reason why there are so many English speakers who don't know how to read properly. It is so much harder to read compared to more sensible languages line German (and many others).
- Izkata 2y ago
  Oh hurrah, I think that link is what I've been looking for for nearly a decade. I ran across it, or something like it, a long time ago and could never find it again. I don't remember all the special syntax, I think the one I found was written more in plain English with more examples (and I don't think the one I found back then mentioned ghoti either), but can't be sure it's been so long - maybe it was just that page and I don't remember it. It does have around the same number of rules I remember though.
- folbec 2y ago
  Maybe it's the right time to once again quote this poem : https://jochenenglish.de/misc/dearest_creature.pdf https://jochenenglish.de/misc/dearest_creature.pdf The joy of English pronunciation George Nolst Trenit´e (1870–1946) 1 The text Dearest creature in creation Studying English pronunciation, I will teach you in my verse Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse. I will keep you, Susy, busy, Make your head with heat grow dizzy; Tear in eye, your dress you’ll tear; Queer, fair seer, hear my prayer. Pray, console your loving poet, Make my coat look new, dear, sew it! Just compare heart, hear and heard, Dies and diet, lord and word. Sword and sward, retain and Britain (Mind the latter how it’s written). Made has not the sound of bade, Say—said, pay—paid, laid but plaid. Now I surely will not plague you With such words as vague and ague, But be careful how you speak, Say: gush, bush, steak, streak, break, bleak, Previous, precious, fuchsia, via, Recipe, pipe, studding-sail, choir; Woven, oven, how and low, Script, receipt, shoe, poem, toe. Say, expecting fraud and trickery: 1 Daughter, laughter and Terpsichore, Branch, ranch, measles, topsails, aisles, Missiles, similes, reviles. ... (7 pages of pain follow) ... and the the Oxford and US pronunciation (at the time, it has changed since) in phonetic.

by zoky 2y ago

brigandish 2y ago

"ough" has at least 9 different possible pronunciations, how is that phonetic?

Suppafly 2y ago
>"ough" has at least 9 different possible pronunciations, how is that phonetic? Does a language stop being phonetic when you have to include other information provided by the rest of the word? I'm not a linguist by any means, but "ough" being pronounced a couple different ways depending how it's used doesn't seem like it'd preclude the language from being considered phonetic in general.
- brigandish 2y ago
  9 is not a couple, unless you're in a very open relationship - which English words might be - but a language stops being phonetic at the point that the mappings between symbols and sounds are no longer clear and reliable. The most phonetic languages have one-to-one mappings with very few exceptions e.g. Japanese, Spanish, Italian, Finnish. English, on the other hand, has silent letters, inconsistent mappings even within the same word, exceptions, irregularities, and sounds that are represented by multiple letters and spellings. English is not a phonetic language except in the sense that it does have mappings between sounds and characters, which would make sense if one were to compare it to a wholly written language like Python, but not any human language.

stephen_g 2y ago

Very true - and every demonstration of “English is hard to spell/pronounce” focuses directly on the exceptions which exaggerates the problem. One analysis I’ve seen puts it that with a single set of rules, 59% of a sample corpus of 5000 English words can be pronounced perfectly from the spelling (of course, there will be regional accent and dialect differences so that percentage will be a bit different for each one) and up to 85% can be pretty close with only slight errors. Then there’s a percentage where they’re just direct borrowings from other languages and you need to have an idea of how that language pronounces words (especially French), so really only 10-15% or so of English words end up being true exceptions. 1. https://www.zompist.com/spell.html https://www.zompist.com/spell.html

nl 2y ago
> a single set of rules, 59% of a sample corpus of 5000 English words can be pronounced perfectly from the spelling To do this you need to know 56(!) rules. I think this actually demonstrates how complex English pronunciation actually is.
- poincaredisk 2y ago
  And you still only get 59% of the way to the correct pronunciation. As a non native speaker of English, and a native speaker of a phonetic language, I strongly object to the notion that it's easy to guess English word pronunciation by just reading it.
  - coliveira 2y ago
    And that's another reason why there are so many English speakers who don't know how to read properly. It is so much harder to read compared to more sensible languages line German (and many others).
Izkata 2y ago
Oh hurrah, I think that link is what I've been looking for for nearly a decade. I ran across it, or something like it, a long time ago and could never find it again. I don't remember all the special syntax, I think the one I found was written more in plain English with more examples (and I don't think the one I found back then mentioned ghoti either), but can't be sure it's been so long - maybe it was just that page and I don't remember it. It does have around the same number of rules I remember though.
folbec 2y ago
Maybe it's the right time to once again quote this poem : https://jochenenglish.de/misc/dearest_creature.pdf https://jochenenglish.de/misc/dearest_creature.pdf The joy of English pronunciation George Nolst Trenit´e (1870–1946) 1 The text Dearest creature in creation Studying English pronunciation, I will teach you in my verse Sounds like corpse, corps, horse and worse. I will keep you, Susy, busy, Make your head with heat grow dizzy; Tear in eye, your dress you’ll tear; Queer, fair seer, hear my prayer. Pray, console your loving poet, Make my coat look new, dear, sew it! Just compare heart, hear and heard, Dies and diet, lord and word. Sword and sward, retain and Britain (Mind the latter how it’s written). Made has not the sound of bade, Say—said, pay—paid, laid but plaid. Now I surely will not plague you With such words as vague and ague, But be careful how you speak, Say: gush, bush, steak, streak, break, bleak, Previous, precious, fuchsia, via, Recipe, pipe, studding-sail, choir; Woven, oven, how and low, Script, receipt, shoe, poem, toe. Say, expecting fraud and trickery: 1 Daughter, laughter and Terpsichore, Branch, ranch, measles, topsails, aisles, Missiles, similes, reviles. ... (7 pages of pain follow) ... and the the Oxford and US pronunciation (at the time, it has changed since) in phonetic.