5 ms·

Seems like they are based in Kenya and fraud/corruption is rampant in some of these African nations. Really sad but its seemingly been like this for so long whi

by edm0nd 2y ago

Seems like they are based in Kenya and fraud/corruption is rampant in some of these African nations. Really sad but its seemingly been like this for so long which is why many of the countries there are in constant civil wars, coups, and their populations poor/starving. If hundreds of billions of dollars in aide over 2 decades isn't fixing these nations, what will?

candiddevmike 2y ago
Is there overlap between what you think needs to be fixed vs what the folks in those African countries think needs to be fixed?
dosinga 2y ago
Kenya is not a rich country, but hardly suffers from "civil wars, coups, and a starving population". Not all African countries do.
- ianeigorndua 2y ago
  If you really believe that, you should take a look at the Wikipedia page of Kenya, especially the history section.
  - normie3000 2y ago
    Which part of it?!
    - Fuzzwah 2y ago
      Probably the 1982 coup and 1988 elections.
      - ianeigorndua 2y ago
        Recent years have also seen rigged elections and attempts to change the 2010 constitution.
- fakedang 2y ago
  I see someone hasn't worked in Kenya. There's a lot of change happening now in Kenya, especially in terms of stable and democratic governance, but in no way is it not corrupt. It ranks at near the top consistently amongst African nations for corruption and bribery at all levels of the government.
Reason077 2y ago
Oxfam is headquartered in Nairobi, Kenya because it's considered a relatively stable/safe country with relatively good facilities and infrastructure. Nairobi provides a good central location to reach other parts of Africa where much of their work is based, and Kenya also provides a favourable regulatory environment for these international organisations to operate. The UN Environment Programme (UNEP) is also based there. Both of these organisations certainly have their issues with corruption, fraud, and grift, but that would likely be the case no matter where they are based. If anything, being physically closer to where much of the money is being spent should help them keep a closer eye on the work that they're funding.
elmomle 2y ago
One idea I've read in the works of Ivan Illich (among others) is that the best thing we could do for developing countries that struggle with corruption is to leave them the hell alone when it comes to financial matters (aside, perhaps, from canceling their World Bank debts, which often come from loans made to past corrupt governments and for which the people are unjustly held accountable) and let them sort their problems out. Injecting money, even with the best of intentions, tends to make things worse when there are already structural problems.
- nradov 2y ago
  How exactly could we even "leave them the hell alone"? Developing countries are integrated into the world economy and financial system. Other countries trade with them. If they want to issue sovereign debt then someone will buy it, if not the World Bank then the Chinese government or random private investors. The World Bank isn't perfect but they're at least somewhat helpful with improving governance standards and avoiding the most egregious forms of corruption.
  - tomatocracy 2y ago
    I mean, yes and no. The World Bank (and other multilaterals) are supposed to provide or facilitate loans which the private sector would not otherwise advance (or provide them on concessionary terms which the private sector otherwise would not offer). Absent this form of lending, countries have a stronger financial incentive to improve their governance to the point where they can borrow on better terms on the open market. This is how bond markets operate in developed markets - hence why eg Italy pays more to borrow money than Germany (despite both being in the Eurozone). Most people would probably agree that the reduction in those basic financial pressures to reform is more than offset by the more formal governance requirements which are (sometimes) attached to the granting of multilateral loans (and the types of governance the private sector cares about don't necessarily always align with what the World Bank cares about). But it's not automatic, especially given "improving governance" isn't the main reason the multilaterals make loans in the first place.
detourdog 2y ago
This problem inspired this program at Williams college. The locals get the opportunity to interact with the students by attending or hosting functions. One of the functions is each student presenting their country and their interests. Always got the sense the program is to train public officials on proper methods of government.

by edm0nd 2y ago

candiddevmike 2y ago

Is there overlap between what you think needs to be fixed vs what the folks in those African countries think needs to be fixed?

dosinga 2y ago

Kenya is not a rich country, but hardly suffers from "civil wars, coups, and a starving population". Not all African countries do.

ianeigorndua 2y ago
If you really believe that, you should take a look at the Wikipedia page of Kenya, especially the history section.
- normie3000 2y ago
  Which part of it?!
  - Fuzzwah 2y ago
    Probably the 1982 coup and 1988 elections.
    - ianeigorndua 2y ago
      Recent years have also seen rigged elections and attempts to change the 2010 constitution.
fakedang 2y ago
I see someone hasn't worked in Kenya. There's a lot of change happening now in Kenya, especially in terms of stable and democratic governance, but in no way is it not corrupt. It ranks at near the top consistently amongst African nations for corruption and bribery at all levels of the government.

Reason077 2y ago

Oxfam is headquartered in Nairobi, Kenya because it's considered a relatively stable/safe country with relatively good facilities and infrastructure. Nairobi provides a good central location to reach other parts of Africa where much of their work is based, and Kenya also provides a favourable regulatory environment for these international organisations to operate. The UN Environment Programme (UNEP) is also based there. Both of these organisations certainly have their issues with corruption, fraud, and grift, but that would likely be the case no matter where they are based. If anything, being physically closer to where much of the money is being spent should help them keep a closer eye on the work that they're funding.

elmomle 2y ago

One idea I've read in the works of Ivan Illich (among others) is that the best thing we could do for developing countries that struggle with corruption is to leave them the hell alone when it comes to financial matters (aside, perhaps, from canceling their World Bank debts, which often come from loans made to past corrupt governments and for which the people are unjustly held accountable) and let them sort their problems out. Injecting money, even with the best of intentions, tends to make things worse when there are already structural problems.

nradov 2y ago
How exactly could we even "leave them the hell alone"? Developing countries are integrated into the world economy and financial system. Other countries trade with them. If they want to issue sovereign debt then someone will buy it, if not the World Bank then the Chinese government or random private investors. The World Bank isn't perfect but they're at least somewhat helpful with improving governance standards and avoiding the most egregious forms of corruption.
- tomatocracy 2y ago
  I mean, yes and no. The World Bank (and other multilaterals) are supposed to provide or facilitate loans which the private sector would not otherwise advance (or provide them on concessionary terms which the private sector otherwise would not offer). Absent this form of lending, countries have a stronger financial incentive to improve their governance to the point where they can borrow on better terms on the open market. This is how bond markets operate in developed markets - hence why eg Italy pays more to borrow money than Germany (despite both being in the Eurozone). Most people would probably agree that the reduction in those basic financial pressures to reform is more than offset by the more formal governance requirements which are (sometimes) attached to the granting of multilateral loans (and the types of governance the private sector cares about don't necessarily always align with what the World Bank cares about). But it's not automatic, especially given "improving governance" isn't the main reason the multilaterals make loans in the first place.

detourdog 2y ago

This problem inspired this program at Williams college. The locals get the opportunity to interact with the students by attending or hosting functions. One of the functions is each student presenting their country and their interests. Always got the sense the program is to train public officials on proper methods of government.