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I'm surprised there's no discussion here about the inflammatory role of vegetable oils (aka seed oils). I think it's likely that these oils are actually causing

I'm surprised there's no discussion here about the inflammatory role of vegetable oils (aka seed oils). I think it's likely that these oils are actually causing inflammatory diseases generally, through a mechanism that isn't understood. Anecdotally (fwiw), in my household my daughter had been struggling with severe rashes that appeared to be triggered by food. An elimination diet caused us to conclude that she is highly reactive to vegetable oils (canola (rapeseed) oil, sunflower seed oil and soybean oil have all been introduced as food challenges and all produce a reaction within 3-6 hours) We currently cook only with tallow and her symptoms have improved considerably (we tried olive oil and avocado oil for awhile but it was unclear on her) As a challenge to anyone objecting to this comment, I ask you to look up the history of canola oil and say whether such a substance would be accepted into the food supply today. And my question to everyone is, what is the mechanism by which seed/vegetable oils could lead to rashes? The only theory I've heard has been around omega-3/6 balance, but I am looking for alternative theories. I conjecture it has something to do with heating, as she isn't affected by ice cream containing these oils.

mind-blight 2y ago
My understanding is that just vegetable oils are generally bad for cooking because of how they retain heat. Even if they have a high smoke point, it's easier for them to get to it. Have you doing that she has the same issue with coconut oil? Specifically, the saturated ones that come in a jar?
lotsofpulp 2y ago
> As a challenge to anyone objecting to this comment, You are free to comment whatever you want, but I don’t see any evidence to support your hypothesis on a population wide basis. >I ask you to look up the history of canola oil and say whether such a substance would be accepted into the food supply today. If you are referring to genetically modified rapeseed plants to be herbicide resistant, then it would most definitely be accepted into the food supply today. Genetically modifying plants still happens all over the world.
- jqgatsby 2y ago
  It's funny, you're the only person who replied who mentioned my challenge, and it's clear you aren't familiar with the history of canola oil, nor are any of the other people replying. You "don't see any evidence" sounds so authoritative, like you are familar with the topic! The relevant modification is with respect to erucic acid, which pre-modification, was 50% of the content of rapeseed oil, and which provably causes heart lesions in mammals. There's no way that someone today could take a plant that naturally produces a useful but toxic industrial lubricant, modify it to be less toxic, and then start feeding it to humans. But in the 1970s you could still get away with stuff like that.
  - lotsofpulp 2y ago
    > There's no way that someone today could take a plant that naturally produces a useful but toxic industrial lubricant, modify it to be less toxic, and then start feeding it to humans. But in the 1970s you could still get away with stuff like that. Why? I am not seeing the causation. Tomatoes came from a family of plants that are not edible, and now they are consumed worldwide.
mvellandi 2y ago
I don’t know about rashes and reactions. But in health circles, seed oils are generally considered safe and retain higher nutritional value if cold pressed. This makes them suitable at least for salads, but not frying.
- profmarshmellow 2y ago
  [dead]
hollerith 2y ago
Paul Saladino advocates a theory that humans cannot handle a lot of linoleic acid in the diet: it decreases the performance of membranes, particularly of mitochondria (which in turn causes insulin resistance, obesity and other problems cause by chronic lack of ATP). Saladino says that it would have been impossible for an ancestral human (particularly in Northern Eurasia where meat from grass-eating animals constituted the majority of calories) to get more than about 3% of calories as linoleic acid whereas the US average is now about 11%. Sunflower seed oil for example is 67% linoleic. corn oil, 53%, soybean oil, 52%. (Most of the omega-6 fatty acid in the human diet is linoleic acid.) Here is Paul Saladino explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j75kc5qamXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j75kc5qamXs
- aeries 2y ago
  Paul Saladino isn't a credible source of information or theories. He's a non-practicing psychiatrist and social media influencer who's gotten rich making contrarian videos and selling supplements.
  - hollerith 2y ago
    I've learned a lot from people who make Youtube videos for a living.
    - daveguy 2y ago
      To be fair, there's a difference between "people who make YouTube videos for a living" and people who make videos to spout contrarian "theories" so they can sell snake oil.
      - alfiopuglisi 2y ago
        Well, at least they don't sell seed oil :)
    - aeries 2y ago
      Watching Youtube videos can make us believe we understand a topic better, but that's not necessarily the case. And without a good understanding of that topic to begin with, it's hard to know why we're wrong. Imagine watching a super compelling Youtube video explaining why dinosaurs never existed, and so you now think that's a credible hypothesis. You would probably know more facts about dinosaurs and paleontology than the average person, but I'd argue that your understanding of dinosaurs has actually gone down. I see a similar thing happening here. You and Paul are able to cite lots of facts about Linoleic Acid. But there's a whole body of experimental human research showing that, if anything, LA-rich oils probably slightly improve insulin sensitivity, inflammation, lipids etc. But Paul either isn't aware of this or chooses not to show you because it contradicts his claims. So you're left with the wrong impression about LA and seed oils, despite thinking that your understanding has gone up.
aeries 2y ago
Except the human studies we have suggest that seed oils are probably not inflammatory. A few examples are listed in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xTaAHSFHUU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xTaAHSFHUU
- meiraleal 2y ago
  It is important to remember that the title of this post is "Saturated fat: the making and unmaking of a scientific consensus".
  - cthalupa 2y ago
    And the author of the article has a long history of misrepresenting science and has direct financial incentive to push her specific view. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31886-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... The BMJ got in trouble for believing her and had to issue retractions because of it: https://www.theverge.com/2015/10/26/9616122/bmj-nina-teicholz-dietary-guidelines-correction-investigation https://www.theverge.com/2015/10/26/9616122/bmj-nina-teichol... There is no evidence that Nina Teicholz should be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to her arguments and plenty of evidence that she should be treated with skepticism.
    - meiraleal 2y ago
      Behaving like bullies trying to prevent people that agree with the author to discuss isn't in the spirit of this forum.
      - exe34 2y ago
        > Except the human studies we have suggest that seed oils are probably not inflammatory. A few examples are listed in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xTaAHSFHUU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xTaAHSFHUU which part of that do you consider bullying? is it any opinion that goes against the underdog?
cthalupa 2y ago
> I'm surprised there's no discussion here about the inflammatory role of vegetable oils (aka seed oils). Because there's very little scientific evidence to be concerned about seed oils themselves and a lot to show that they're fine to good for you. If you want to talk specifically about inflammation, there's not really any evidence that inflammatory markers in humans are increased by seed oils themselves, e.g. https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/01.ATV.0000163185.28245.a1 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/01.ATV.0000163185.28... The idea that seed oils cause inflammation is largely based on mechanistic studies that don't seem to bear out when the larger and more complex ecosystem of our biology is introduced. > And my question to everyone is, what is the mechanism by which seed/vegetable oils could lead to rashes? The only theory I've heard has been around omega-3/6 balance, but I am looking for alternative theories. Canola oil has high levels of omega-3s. If it was the omega-3/6 balance theory then it would be one of the best options for oil use. Individuals can have bad reactions for a variety of reasons, of course. And there is a very high correlation between seed oils and food that is just generally shitty for you, so if you cut them out of your diet you are also cutting a lot of garbage out, which will likely have an impact independent of the oils themselves, and this is likely what drives a good portion of anecdotal positive experiences.
- profmarshmellow 2y ago
  There are countless peer reviewed studies and articles on both sides of the argument sure - but the sheer volume of anecdotal evidence and the overwhelming consensus across 100K and even 1M+ subreddits against seed oils is unique. You don’t see this level of unified backlash against most other everyday substances.
  - KempyKolibri 2y ago
    Tbh the evidence in the literature on seed oils is actually overwhelmingly in their favour. Studies that find in the opposite direction are few and far between, comparatively. So then we’re just left with “lots of people on the internet believe a thing to be true, surely there’s something in it.” Hopefully I don’t need to come up with a counter example here, you can just see how poor an argument this is.
throw_pm23 2y ago
Could it be some other chemical to blame that you are exposed to day-to-day? With so many additives, preservatives, colorants, detergents, cleaning products, cosmetics, perfumes, paints, disinfectants, plastic packaging, synthetic clothing, herbicides, pesticides, glues in furniture, car exhaust, rubber dust, and other chemicals around us, canola oil would not be my first guess of something causing rashes or allergies.
GeoAtreides 2y ago
> there's no discussion here about the inflammatory role of vegetable oils (aka seed oils) that's because it's literally a 4chan /pol/ schizo theory
- jqgatsby 2y ago
  you didn't respond to my challenge, look up the history of canola oil and erucic acid and at least familiarize yourself before dismissing
LarsDu88 2y ago
Your daughter might simply be allergic to a substance in one of these oils and may not be reflective of the experience of the population at large.
phkahler 2y ago
My understanding is that the culprit is partially hydrogenated oils (PHOs). Which are chemically the same thing (it seems?) as polyunsaturated fats. We need our carbon chains to be consistenty hydrogenated one way or the other, but not with both types in one molecule.
throwaway984393 2y ago
[dead]
ChumpGPT 2y ago
I don't know if you're familiar with Ray Pete, but he writes about seed oils and the affect they have on our health. https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturated-oils.shtml https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturated-oils.shtml You said that you suspect it is the heating of the oils, but even the oil found in ice creme has been heated somewhere in the process unless it is cold pressed. Can she eat sun flower seeds, olives or avocado without a reaction? Have you tried coconut oil as an alternative?
scellus 2y ago
Although not probable in this case as far as I know: if vegetable oils seem to cause problems for you, you should be aware of sitosterolemia (phytosterolemia), caused by rare mutations in genes ABCG5 and ABCG8. It needs to be homozygous for symptoms. (I have it, discovered by a full-genome sequencing by myself, accidentally around the age of 50.)
- jqgatsby 2y ago
  wow, that's extremely useful and interesting! Can you say more about your condition? Did you have any symptoms? Which company did you use for the full-genome sequencing? It looks like the treatment involves avoiding vegetable oils, but in her case there are no visible xanthomas.

mind-blight 2y ago

My understanding is that just vegetable oils are generally bad for cooking because of how they retain heat. Even if they have a high smoke point, it's easier for them to get to it. Have you doing that she has the same issue with coconut oil? Specifically, the saturated ones that come in a jar?

lotsofpulp 2y ago

> As a challenge to anyone objecting to this comment, You are free to comment whatever you want, but I don’t see any evidence to support your hypothesis on a population wide basis. >I ask you to look up the history of canola oil and say whether such a substance would be accepted into the food supply today. If you are referring to genetically modified rapeseed plants to be herbicide resistant, then it would most definitely be accepted into the food supply today. Genetically modifying plants still happens all over the world.

jqgatsby 2y ago
It's funny, you're the only person who replied who mentioned my challenge, and it's clear you aren't familiar with the history of canola oil, nor are any of the other people replying. You "don't see any evidence" sounds so authoritative, like you are familar with the topic! The relevant modification is with respect to erucic acid, which pre-modification, was 50% of the content of rapeseed oil, and which provably causes heart lesions in mammals. There's no way that someone today could take a plant that naturally produces a useful but toxic industrial lubricant, modify it to be less toxic, and then start feeding it to humans. But in the 1970s you could still get away with stuff like that.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  > There's no way that someone today could take a plant that naturally produces a useful but toxic industrial lubricant, modify it to be less toxic, and then start feeding it to humans. But in the 1970s you could still get away with stuff like that. Why? I am not seeing the causation. Tomatoes came from a family of plants that are not edible, and now they are consumed worldwide.

mvellandi 2y ago

I don’t know about rashes and reactions. But in health circles, seed oils are generally considered safe and retain higher nutritional value if cold pressed. This makes them suitable at least for salads, but not frying.

profmarshmellow 2y ago
[dead]

hollerith 2y ago

Paul Saladino advocates a theory that humans cannot handle a lot of linoleic acid in the diet: it decreases the performance of membranes, particularly of mitochondria (which in turn causes insulin resistance, obesity and other problems cause by chronic lack of ATP). Saladino says that it would have been impossible for an ancestral human (particularly in Northern Eurasia where meat from grass-eating animals constituted the majority of calories) to get more than about 3% of calories as linoleic acid whereas the US average is now about 11%. Sunflower seed oil for example is 67% linoleic. corn oil, 53%, soybean oil, 52%. (Most of the omega-6 fatty acid in the human diet is linoleic acid.) Here is Paul Saladino explaining it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j75kc5qamXs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j75kc5qamXs

aeries 2y ago
Paul Saladino isn't a credible source of information or theories. He's a non-practicing psychiatrist and social media influencer who's gotten rich making contrarian videos and selling supplements.
- hollerith 2y ago
  I've learned a lot from people who make Youtube videos for a living.
  - daveguy 2y ago
    To be fair, there's a difference between "people who make YouTube videos for a living" and people who make videos to spout contrarian "theories" so they can sell snake oil.
    - alfiopuglisi 2y ago
      Well, at least they don't sell seed oil :)
  - aeries 2y ago
    Watching Youtube videos can make us believe we understand a topic better, but that's not necessarily the case. And without a good understanding of that topic to begin with, it's hard to know why we're wrong. Imagine watching a super compelling Youtube video explaining why dinosaurs never existed, and so you now think that's a credible hypothesis. You would probably know more facts about dinosaurs and paleontology than the average person, but I'd argue that your understanding of dinosaurs has actually gone down. I see a similar thing happening here. You and Paul are able to cite lots of facts about Linoleic Acid. But there's a whole body of experimental human research showing that, if anything, LA-rich oils probably slightly improve insulin sensitivity, inflammation, lipids etc. But Paul either isn't aware of this or chooses not to show you because it contradicts his claims. So you're left with the wrong impression about LA and seed oils, despite thinking that your understanding has gone up.

aeries 2y ago

Except the human studies we have suggest that seed oils are probably not inflammatory. A few examples are listed in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xTaAHSFHUU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xTaAHSFHUU

meiraleal 2y ago
It is important to remember that the title of this post is "Saturated fat: the making and unmaking of a scientific consensus".
- cthalupa 2y ago
  And the author of the article has a long history of misrepresenting science and has direct financial incentive to push her specific view. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(18)31886-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6... The BMJ got in trouble for believing her and had to issue retractions because of it: https://www.theverge.com/2015/10/26/9616122/bmj-nina-teicholz-dietary-guidelines-correction-investigation https://www.theverge.com/2015/10/26/9616122/bmj-nina-teichol... There is no evidence that Nina Teicholz should be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to her arguments and plenty of evidence that she should be treated with skepticism.
  - meiraleal 2y ago
    Behaving like bullies trying to prevent people that agree with the author to discuss isn't in the spirit of this forum.
    - exe34 2y ago
      > Except the human studies we have suggest that seed oils are probably not inflammatory. A few examples are listed in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xTaAHSFHUU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xTaAHSFHUU which part of that do you consider bullying? is it any opinion that goes against the underdog?

cthalupa 2y ago

> I'm surprised there's no discussion here about the inflammatory role of vegetable oils (aka seed oils). Because there's very little scientific evidence to be concerned about seed oils themselves and a lot to show that they're fine to good for you. If you want to talk specifically about inflammation, there's not really any evidence that inflammatory markers in humans are increased by seed oils themselves, e.g. https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/01.ATV.0000163185.28245.a1 https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/10.1161/01.ATV.0000163185.28... The idea that seed oils cause inflammation is largely based on mechanistic studies that don't seem to bear out when the larger and more complex ecosystem of our biology is introduced. > And my question to everyone is, what is the mechanism by which seed/vegetable oils could lead to rashes? The only theory I've heard has been around omega-3/6 balance, but I am looking for alternative theories. Canola oil has high levels of omega-3s. If it was the omega-3/6 balance theory then it would be one of the best options for oil use. Individuals can have bad reactions for a variety of reasons, of course. And there is a very high correlation between seed oils and food that is just generally shitty for you, so if you cut them out of your diet you are also cutting a lot of garbage out, which will likely have an impact independent of the oils themselves, and this is likely what drives a good portion of anecdotal positive experiences.

profmarshmellow 2y ago
There are countless peer reviewed studies and articles on both sides of the argument sure - but the sheer volume of anecdotal evidence and the overwhelming consensus across 100K and even 1M+ subreddits against seed oils is unique. You don’t see this level of unified backlash against most other everyday substances.
- KempyKolibri 2y ago
  Tbh the evidence in the literature on seed oils is actually overwhelmingly in their favour. Studies that find in the opposite direction are few and far between, comparatively. So then we’re just left with “lots of people on the internet believe a thing to be true, surely there’s something in it.” Hopefully I don’t need to come up with a counter example here, you can just see how poor an argument this is.

throw_pm23 2y ago

Could it be some other chemical to blame that you are exposed to day-to-day? With so many additives, preservatives, colorants, detergents, cleaning products, cosmetics, perfumes, paints, disinfectants, plastic packaging, synthetic clothing, herbicides, pesticides, glues in furniture, car exhaust, rubber dust, and other chemicals around us, canola oil would not be my first guess of something causing rashes or allergies.

GeoAtreides 2y ago

> there's no discussion here about the inflammatory role of vegetable oils (aka seed oils) that's because it's literally a 4chan /pol/ schizo theory

jqgatsby 2y ago
you didn't respond to my challenge, look up the history of canola oil and erucic acid and at least familiarize yourself before dismissing

LarsDu88 2y ago

Your daughter might simply be allergic to a substance in one of these oils and may not be reflective of the experience of the population at large.

phkahler 2y ago

My understanding is that the culprit is partially hydrogenated oils (PHOs). Which are chemically the same thing (it seems?) as polyunsaturated fats. We need our carbon chains to be consistenty hydrogenated one way or the other, but not with both types in one molecule.

throwaway984393 2y ago

[dead]

ChumpGPT 2y ago

I don't know if you're familiar with Ray Pete, but he writes about seed oils and the affect they have on our health. https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturated-oils.shtml https://raypeat.com/articles/articles/unsaturated-oils.shtml You said that you suspect it is the heating of the oils, but even the oil found in ice creme has been heated somewhere in the process unless it is cold pressed. Can she eat sun flower seeds, olives or avocado without a reaction? Have you tried coconut oil as an alternative?

scellus 2y ago

Although not probable in this case as far as I know: if vegetable oils seem to cause problems for you, you should be aware of sitosterolemia (phytosterolemia), caused by rare mutations in genes ABCG5 and ABCG8. It needs to be homozygous for symptoms. (I have it, discovered by a full-genome sequencing by myself, accidentally around the age of 50.)

jqgatsby 2y ago
wow, that's extremely useful and interesting! Can you say more about your condition? Did you have any symptoms? Which company did you use for the full-genome sequencing? It looks like the treatment involves avoiding vegetable oils, but in her case there are no visible xanthomas.